Winnipeg Construction VIII

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by DonaldSmith

You also understand that other lanes are open when people are crossing. The whole intersection doesn't stop for pedestrians. Pedestrians would cross when people would be sitting in their cars at red lights anyways. The change would have a minimal impact.

Exactly. Currently the cars have to stop anyway. It's not like we're taking an intersection where cars flowed freely and now making them stop. Sure there is some logistical challenges to optimizing traffic flow to account for pedestrians, but we have the example of every other intersection in the world to draw from.

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Except in the case of Winnipeg there really aren't alternative routes, sure 13K may work down but I bet 4X that travel through that intersection everyday by car. Before that intersection was closed Winnipeg was closer to 500K than the 800K it is now, it was a bottleneck then and I could only imagine the gridlock if was opened to pedestrians now.

I don't get this argument. Just about every other intersection in downtown is open to pedestrians, and operated more or less without issue. At the end of the day P&M is just another intersection.

IMO, any talk of traffic issues resulting from opening up this intersection cannot hold any water when you consider the 6 or 8 lanes of Main Street are subject to TWO MANUAL controlled crosswalks in very close proximity to P&M.

One of these crosswalks is operated mostly by people who have physical disabilities, or are intoxicated or otherwise just don't give a sh*t, so they stroll across the six lanes of Main St. at their leisure - all the while being less than half a block away from a controlled intersection at Higgins.

And yet, despite this kind of ridiculousness - people still think opening up P&M to controlled pedestrian access will cause traffic issues?

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trueviking

You miss the point. It's not about what is at the corner specifically. It's about connectivity between areas of downtown.
...

13,000 people work at portage and main every single day. The entire population of Steinbach. To suggest opening it to pedestrians is for tourists is simply wrong.

Connectivity for pedestrians does not require opening Portage and Main. There is a route for that traffic which works perfectly fine today. On the forum there is talk about the need for more grade separation between high volume vehicle routes and how LRT is superior to bus rapid transit as it is grade separated. This is the same thing for pedestrians, we have a grade separated crossing already. It is no different than what you see on the Vegas strip which has many times higher the foot traffic than Portage and Main will ever see. If grade separation is so pedestrian unfriendly why do so many people walk the Vegas strip every day?

Originally Posted by DonaldSmith

Why isn't there gridlock when all other intersections are open to pedestrians?

You also understand that other lanes are open when people are crossing. The whole intersection doesn't stop for pedestrians. Pedestrians would cross when people would be sitting in their cars at red lights anyways. The change would have a minimal impact.

Only opening the north-south flow would have minimal impact to traffic. The north side east-west flow would stop around 10 lanes of traffic with the left turn lanes on Portage Ave already accumulating vehicles past Fort/Norte Dame most of the day. The west side north-south flow would cause issues with the south to west traffic flow. There is already no north to west traffic at the intersection. The south side east-west flow could be the other one with a smaller scale impact. The east to south traffic flow does stack up however it could be managed.

Opening Portage and Main to pedestrians is likely to cause large scale implications of vehicle flow through the entire downtown core and as a whole make it less pedestrian friendly as what were once quiet intersections see increased traffic volumes as people look for ways around the new congestion at P&M. It is very short sighted move with almost no actual meaningful impact.

[drew]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Opening Portage and Main to pedestrians is likely to cause large scale implications of vehicle flow through the entire downtown core and as a whole make it less pedestrian friendly as what were once quiet intersections see increased traffic volumes as people look for ways around the new congestion at P&M. It is very short sighted move with almost no actual meaningful impact.

It will have implications - but like I said above - if you can have manual controlled pedestrian crossing across the VERY busy 6 or 8 lanes of Main St., you an have people walking across P&M when the white hand says they can. Not to mention the count down timers that really aid both drivers and pedestrians.

P&M was closed to aid an the bottom line of an underground shopping mall. Not as a saviour to downtown traffic.

In any event - the real traffic bottleneck in the downtown area is not even related to pedestrians - its where Portage crosses over Sherbrook and Maryland. That is ALWAYS a traffic bottleneck, in both directions.

[NK59]

I've worked downtown most of my life and my opinion is that opening Portage and Main to pedestrians is a huge waste of time and money. There are INDOOR tunnels below ground that work perfectly fine.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

P&M was closed to aid an the bottom line of an underground shopping mall. Not as a saviour to downtown traffic.

People tend to forget this point. As I understand it, the city blocked off the corner mainly as a concession to Trizec and the other property owners at the corner at the time.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

360 Main announcement in March. It will look different.

Heard it will look amazing...totally different

[oftheMoon]

Originally Posted by esquire

People tend to forget this point. As I understand it, the city blocked off the corner mainly as a concession to Trizec and the other property owners at the corner at the time.

From what I also understand P&M was closed to pedestrians as a business decision to drive people underground to what was supposed to be a tourist attraction destination to shop underground. Why else would there be a 40 year agreement with the businesses if it wasn’t about business?

I’m not sure how much (if any) traffic flow or pedestrian safety was considered when P&M closed to pedestrians 40 years ago. I’m not even sure those were issues.

[CoryB]

Deal signed to close Portage and Main: 1976
Construction of Winnipeg Square: 1979

Yes, the deal was done to benefit the mall and not the other way around...

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Deal signed to close Portage and Main: 1976
Construction of Winnipeg Square: 1979

Yes, the deal was done to benefit the mall and not the other way around...

The plan for Winnipeg Square was formulated in 1976.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by esquire

People tend to forget this point. As I understand it, the city blocked off the corner mainly as a concession to Trizec and the other property owners at the corner at the time.

The whole Trizec project was one of the biggest con jobs in the history of the city. The developer convinced the city to expropriate and demolish almost an entire square city block, and close down its marquee intersection to pedestrian traffic in exchange for 2 office towers, a hotel and an underground mall. They then only delivered 1 tower and the mall, with no consequence to them.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Deal signed to close Portage and Main: 1976
Construction of Winnipeg Square: 1979

Yes, the deal was done to benefit the mall and not the other way around...

Why are you comparing a deal signing date to a construction date. Doesn't tell us much of anything.

Look what I can do:
Deal signed to construct Winnipeg square: 1976
Portage and Main closure: 1978

[bryanscott]

Portage and Main is the perfect symbol for Winnipeg: A once thriving place, shackled by car culture and the suburban dream. The loudest opponents of opening the intersection are the people that view downtown streets as mere freeways and take pride in the fact that their actual visits downtown are few and far between. Yet these are the very people that bemoan the loudest about how great Winnipeg once was, years ago, as evidenced by picture postcards of bustling streets.

Cities are for people, not cars. A healthy Winnipeg starts downtown, and a healthy downtown starts at Portage and Main. Even if it's little more than a symbolic gesture, opening the intersection will do more for the spirit of downtown than any mega-project, hotel or condo ever will.

It's time for Winnipeg to wake up from its 40 year slumber and be a great city again. Might there be traffic delays? Probably, but you'll adjust and life will go on.

[CoryB]

I walk around in downtown Winnipeg almost every day yet strongly oppose the opening of Portage and Main. There is NO benefit to that plan, NONE.

If the city had not agreed to close Portage and Main would Winnipeg Square have been built? Maybe not. The deal wasn't done to prop up a mall, the mall exists because of the deal.

[drew]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I walk around in downtown Winnipeg almost every day yet strongly oppose the opening of Portage and Main. There is NO benefit to that plan, NONE.

If the city had not agreed to close Portage and Main would Winnipeg Square have been built? Maybe not. The deal wasn't done to prop up a mall, the mall exists because of the deal.

I am not so sure about that.

And I also disagree with your first statement. But I have retorted to you already, which I am sure you have read.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

In any case, I hope the powers that be forge ahead with opening up the intersection.

[oftheMoon]

Originally Posted by bryanscott

Portage and Main is the perfect symbol for Winnipeg: A once thriving place, shackled by car culture and the suburban dream. The loudest opponents of opening the intersection are the people that view downtown streets as mere freeways and take pride in the fact that their actual visits downtown are few and far between. Yet these are the very people that bemoan the loudest about how great Winnipeg once was, years ago, as evidenced by picture postcards of bustling streets.

Cities are for people, not cars. A healthy Winnipeg starts downtown, and a healthy downtown starts at Portage and Main. Even if it's little more than a symbolic gesture, opening the intersection will do more for the spirit of downtown than any mega-project, hotel or condo ever will.

It's time for Winnipeg to wake up from its 40 year slumber and be a great city again. Might there be traffic delays? Probably, but you'll adjust and life will go on.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by CoryB

If the city had not agreed to close Portage and Main would Winnipeg Square have been built? Maybe not. The deal wasn't done to prop up a mall, the mall exists because of the deal.

The deal was done to support what was supposed to be a much bigger project, but turned out to just be a bait and switch.

With the cost involved in building the mall, I'm sure it wasn't utterly and completely contingent in a make-or-break fashion on closing an intersection. Especially an intersection that another poster says would only be used by tourists staying at the Fairmont and drunks.

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by bryanscott

Portage and Main is the perfect symbol for Winnipeg: A once thriving place, shackled by car culture and the suburban dream. The loudest opponents of opening the intersection are the people that view downtown streets as mere freeways and take pride in the fact that their actual visits downtown are few and far between. Yet these are the very people that bemoan the loudest about how great Winnipeg once was, years ago, as evidenced by picture postcards of bustling streets.

Cities are for people, not cars. A healthy Winnipeg starts downtown, and a healthy downtown starts at Portage and Main. Even if it's little more than a symbolic gesture, opening the intersection will do more for the spirit of downtown than any mega-project, hotel or condo ever will.

It's time for Winnipeg to wake up from its 40 year slumber and be a great city again. Might there be traffic delays? Probably, but you'll adjust and life will go on.

Great post. P & M is incredibly forbidding with those hideous barricades and lack of people. It is incredibly depressing walking in the vicinity. I welcome the removal of them.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Great post. P & M is incredibly forbidding with those hideous barricades and lack of people. It is incredibly depressing walking in the vicinity. I welcome the removal of them.

Open it up. Join the twenty-first century.

[Urban recluse]

I raise my glass of wine to that.