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  #121  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
so if i am reading this right, the city set a height limit that is higher than the view cone allows? how the hell does that even make sense?
Rule #1 of Bureaucracy - Never, under any circumstances, let the left hand know what the right hand is doing.
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  #122  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 1:12 AM
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The problem with the height reduction is that this gem won't be visible in the famous West End / Coal Harbour skyline as seem from Stanley Park seawall. Remove ten floors from the below rendering and you see how it will be hidden by the wall of buildings.

Our City officials are idiots to dumb down world-class architecture that could transform our skyline for the next decade. Now it will be hidden and not a visible landmark. Also the form factor will be totally different with so many fewer floors.

Who voted for these idiots to be in the office?

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  #123  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 1:16 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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excuse the digression,but I couldn't help myself . . .

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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Rule #1 of Bureaucracy - Never, under any circumstances, let the left hand know what the right hand is doing.
Off thread, but try living in France. There's so much bureaucracy, administration, and paperasse here, I'm sure they're destroying half the world's forests and making life a Kafka-esque hell.
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  #124  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2016, 6:34 AM
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similar to what happened with Grace if you ask me.
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  #125  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2016, 11:04 PM
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Viewcone idea: do you think we would see as many developments at once if there was no height limit, or would we see far fewer, taller projects? If say, the commercial market is building to meet a certain demand, isn't it better for the CoV that the new capacity is spread out over many sites instead of a single one? Viewcone arguments always boil down to "big buildings are cool" and "I like views" (and sometimes the very astute "but the trees are growing"), but incentivizing broader development are important aspects of the policy too. And apparently curbing land speculation.
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  #126  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2016, 5:08 AM
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Originally Posted by NewWester View Post

Viewcone idea: do you think we would see as many developments at once if there was no height limit, or would we see far fewer, taller projects? If say, the commercial market is building to meet a certain demand, isn't it better for the CoV that the new capacity is spread out over many sites instead of a single one? Viewcone arguments always boil down to "big buildings are cool" and "I like views" (and sometimes the very astute "but the trees are growing"), but incentivizing broader development are important aspects of the policy too.
I am doubtful about the value of responding, since the fact you believe arguments against viewcones boil down to "big buildings are cool" demonstrates you have made little effort to understand the numerous substantive arguments against artificial height restrictions.

Ironically, one of the most important arguments against artificial height restriction is economic. That is, the viewcones actually disincentivize development because they make development less economically efficient and more expensive to build.

To understand this basic fact you need only remind yourself why the city imposes height restrictions in the first place. The city imposes height restrictions because the city knows that in the absence of such restrictions, developers would in many cases build higher. Why would developers build higher? Because in many cases building higher is the more economcially efficient (i.e., more profitable) thing to do.

This fact is implicitly conceded by every proponent of viewcones. Since we all agree that developers are guided by economic efficiency and profit maximization, no proponent of viewcones can coherently argue that we need height restrictions while simultaneously denying that it makes more economic sense to build higher than the restrictions allow. For if it did not make more economic sense to build higher than the viewcones allowed, then the need for viewcones would cease to exist and the arguments in favour of them would be unintelligible.

How viewcones create substantial economic ineffficiencies and extra expenses is not difficult to see. Take the construction of one 60-storey building versus the construction of two 30-storey buildings. Having to purchase two sites to house the same number of people is more costly and less efficient than having to purchase only one; having to begin excavation twice is more costly and less efficient than having to begin excavation once; going through two lengthy approval processes is more costly and less efficient than going through just one, etc.

Who do you think absorbs all these inefficiencies and extra costs? Not the developer. He passes them on to the purchaser in the form of higher prices. Passing the inefficiencies created by the viewcone regime on to the purchaser puts the price of downtown real estate out of the reach of many working professionals in Vancouver. In other words, the market for downtown real estate is not as great as it would be if developers were permitted to build as efficiently as possible and pass those savings on in the form of prices that many more Vancouverites could afford. Thus, demand is not static. Just as prices are affected by demand, so demand is affected by prices. The lower the price for downtown real estate, the greater the potential market for it would be. Thus, in the absence of viewcones (and the economic inefficiencies and higher prices they entail), we would not only see taller towers but more of them.
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  #127  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2016, 9:36 PM
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I actually agree with your overall argument: from a developers perspective it makes the most sense to build fewer, taller buildings because of the efficiencies you state. I just think its a fallacy to suggest that without height restrictions developers would build an equal number of towers all at once, or that the cost of units would substantially drop. Since real estate is hypothetically a supply-and-demand business, I suspect that in the absence of height restrictions we would see fewer, taller buildings and that the overall supply of commercial and residential space would remain about the same (at about the same cost), and that we would see less overall development and density. I think it is somewhat naive to think developers wouldn't play the long game and control the supply of new space to preserve costs.

Which makes removing height restrictions, to me, great for developers and maybe individual building aesthetics, but bad for the overall fabric of the city. I also think, it would be bad for us as building fans since we would see far fewer new buildings being started at once.

(I'm also curious about the economic effects of this on the province since 2 buildings employ twice the construction crews etc.)
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  #128  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 5:19 AM
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I find a slight majority of our current viewcones to be of little value, but agree with the concept in principle, and believe better viewcones should be established. Obviously they limit the economic potential of individual sites - that's where density transfers and other incentives come into play, but the primary issue isn't economic value, but aesthetic value. There is value in building a sense of place, to be able to see the mountains from various public spaces within the city in spite of the density. We don't need to pack all of the density into the downtown peninsula if more density (and similar level of urban planning) is given to the rest of the city.
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  #129  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 6:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewWester View Post

I just think its a fallacy to suggest that without height restrictions developers would build an equal number of towers all at once, or that the cost of units would substantially drop. Since real estate is hypothetically a supply-and-demand business, I suspect that in the absence of height restrictions we would see fewer, taller buildings and that the overall supply of commercial and residential space would remain about the same (at about the same cost), and that we would see less overall development and density. I think it is somewhat naive to think developers wouldn't play the long game and control the supply of new space to preserve costs.
Since this discussion is off topic, this will be my last comment on this issue in this thread:

If you really believe what you wrote above, then you do not understand the fundamentals of economics and the potent price-reducing role of competition in a liberal marketplace.

If artificial barriers to efficient production are removed in a competitive marketplace, then one cannot keep selling something at a price that reflects the higher cost of production with economic impunity. Would you buy a condo from a developer offering $800/sf when another developer is offering an equivalent product for $700/sf? No, and neither would anyone else. In a competitive marketplace, therefore, one must reduce prices to a level commensurate with the lower cost of production, if one wants to survive.

But as the price for downtown real estate decreases, the potential market for downtown real estate increases. As prices drop, thousands of people who could not buy downtown real estate at the higher prices but can do so at the lower prices are finally admitted to a marketplace they formerly could not afford to enter. Thus, the choice between shorter but more buildings on the one hand and taller but less buildings on the other is a false dichotomy, since the removal of artificial height restrictions (and the decreases in price their removal entails due to the increases in efficiency) expand the market for downtown real estate substantially beyond what it was before.

Therefore, far from resulting in less buildings, the removal of artificial height restrictions would likely result in as many if not more buildings than before, since artificial barriers to efficient production (like viewcones) do not just suppress height but the very size of the marketplace and growth itself.
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  #130  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 10:37 PM
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Decreeing things off topic and the end of the debate before rebutting is kind of lame since it makes me a jerk for continuing.

So I'm just going to say this: you have a very idealistic view for how capitalism works and that artificial scarcity as a means to control prices is a pretty common method for corporations to artificially control prices (diamond cartels, etc) if they control a sufficient amount of a commodity. Since developers effectively control the supply of land/development they can do what they like, and charge what they like. (I also think that if development were to become cheaper, corporations which exist solely to generate profits, would be very inclined to pocket the surplus rather than pass it on to the consumer. But unlike you, I have a distinctly cynical view for how Capitalism works.)
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  #131  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NewWester View Post
Decreeing things off topic and the end of the debate before rebutting is kind of lame since it makes me a jerk for continuing.

So I'm just going to say this: you have a very idealistic view for how capitalism works and that artificial scarcity as a means to control prices is a pretty common method for corporations to artificially control prices (diamond cartels, etc) if they control a sufficient amount of a commodity. Since developers effectively control the supply of land/development they can do what they like, and charge what they like. (I also think that if development were to become cheaper, corporations which exist solely to generate profits, would be very inclined to pocket the surplus rather than pass it on to the consumer. But unlike you, I have a distinctly cynical view for how Capitalism works.)
I watched this exchange with some interest. Let me just add this caveat...government does have the power to distort capitalist (real estate)markets with their various (fiscal, environmental, urban planning etc.) policy tools.
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  #132  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2016, 7:15 PM
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Public Open house for 1500 West Georgia Street.
Thursday, February 4, 2016
5:00pm - 7:30pm (drop-in)
Empire Landmark Hotel
1400 Robson Street
(Pavilion 1)
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  #133  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2016, 6:33 PM
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Did anyone go last night? I'm not in town but would have attended if I was.

Not a word on the forums or in the media today. Strange given the hype surrounding this building.
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  #134  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2016, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
Did anyone go last night? I'm not in town but would have attended if I was.

Not a word on the forums or in the media today. Strange given the hype surrounding this building.
Hype's gone once the height has been drastically reduced I suppose.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2016/02/j...own-vancouver/

It will now table-top with the other buildings nearby. Forget about the "gateway" status.
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  #135  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2016, 8:42 PM
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The height of the proposed Jenga-like tower at 1500 West Georgia, on the same block as the Rhone and Iredale-designed triangular office building, has been cut down from 500 feet (152 metres) as originally proposed to 436 feet (113 metres) – from 51 storeys to 43 storeys.
What? 113 meters must bea bad joke. With that height it will be completely hidden and even dwarfed by the neighbouring buildings.

Quote:
“It did change the top of the tower slightly, but fundamentally the architectural character and the spirit of Scheeren’s design hasn’t changed at all,” Simpson added. “It is exactly the same, except that it is a little shorter.”
Yeah right...
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  #136  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2016, 10:18 PM
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132m is what that number should say.

The metric/imperial conversion doesn't match up, and I'd guess this building is bigger than 2.6m/flr.
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  #137  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2016, 12:51 AM
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“It did change the top of the tower slightly, but fundamentally the architectural character and the spirit of Scheeren’s design hasn’t changed at all,” Simpson added. “It is exactly the same, except that it is a little shorter.”
Yeah right...

If knocking off height hasnt changed the building at all (which is a load of steaming horseshit) Then why not leave it the way it was?
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  #138  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster View Post
Quote:
“It did change the top of the tower slightly, but fundamentally the architectural character and the spirit of Scheeren’s design hasn’t changed at all,” Simpson added. “It is exactly the same, except that it is a little shorter.”
Yeah right...

If knocking off height hasnt changed the building at all (which is a load of steaming horseshit) Then why not leave it the way it was?
Because that would make sense.
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  #139  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2016, 1:23 PM
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Rezoning application has been filed
http://rezoning.vancouver.ca/applica...rgia/index.htm

The at grade treatment appears to be different than the original proposal.
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  #140  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2016, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by privatejet View Post

The at grade treatment appears to be different than the original proposal.
Well, there were bound to be some changes after the city, in a new low of mindless rigidity, neutered the internationally-designed tower down to a pedestrian 133 metres for no reason other than it violated the the precious view circled in red below (notwithstanding that the originally proposed 152 metres is consistent with the new allowable heights under the city`s own West End Community Plan):

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