New Downtown Calgary Arena

[McMurph]

Originally Posted by bt04ku

It would be great to see polling numbers for the public's support of CalgaryNEXT pre and post-Bettman visit, because I have a suspicion that he did a lot more harm than good on his visit.

I completely agree. Bettman and King are looking completely out of touch. I particularly like the veiled threats and implication that the arena is a crucial catalyst for urban renewal. Oh, if only we could get the NHL all-star game we could be a world class city just like Columbus.

If the Flames want this thing built they should go away for a while and come back with a serious and well thought out proposal. Between now and then I wish they would all just shut up. My respect for the organization and the owner's group has been plummeting since their clownish announcement last year.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by bt04ku

It would be great to see polling numbers for the public's support of CalgaryNEXT pre and post-Bettman visit, because I have a suspicion that he did a lot more harm than good on his visit.

Scroll down to Jan 12:
http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/more/poll-results
31% for, 69% against

A previous poll here:
http://globalnews.ca/news/2180203/new-po...algarynext-plan-for-multi-sport-complex/

Though different method and breakdown. The most recent poll on CTV indicates there isn't a lot of support.

[Ramsayfarian]

The Wallstreet Journal had an interesting article about Cincinnati getting double teamed by the NFL and MLB. Sounds

I think Brendan Dassey negotiated the deal for the county:
"On top of paying for the stadium, Hamilton County granted the Bengals generous lease terms. It agreed to pick up nearly all operating and capital improvement costs—and to foot the bill for high-tech bells and whistles that have yet to be invented, like a "holographic replay machine.""


http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704461304576216330349497852

[sim]

Originally Posted by Cage

Most of what cities provide does not meet financial economic sense. Take Transit as an example. Hand over the reigns of Calgary Transit to Westjet and they will make it profitable. But most transit supporters will be horrified at he results. Bus schedules cut 75% and only operating on the busiest of routes. Feeder service to c-train cut unless each bus is 80% full, but a massive expansion of park and ride and LRT.

can you give me three examples where the city utilizes greater than $50 million capital and has an investor grade return on capital (eg the financial business case makes sense)?

The city needs to put together their own analysis based on their own business case formula. Then the city needs to tell Calgary Sports and Entertainment a yes or no answer. Either way the city council will get a lot of negative feedback. It just a matter of deciding the faction that will be dissapointed the most.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Though it should be said: our governments spend lots of money on things with no discernible returns. In fact, if they had discernible returns, there would be no reason to use public money!

It's doubtful that any private would be able to profitably (in terms of pure money) operate a public transit system, really at any scale in most of North America, given its unfair competition; but yeah, if so, then at a very reduced level of service. That being said, transit is profitable. It has an immense amount of positive externalities. The returns are very much discernible if you look at it from a broader perspective. So there is a very good reason to use public money in this case. I found that point to be a little strange.

This is in contrast to a sports stadium. What positive externalities can be expect there? More people patronizing bars and pubs and supporting the local economy? This is often touted as one of them; I find the claim tenuous at best - the studies seem to support that. Civic pride? Perhaps. Begs the question, is that actually a positive in that form? Might be more important to build a City that people can be intrinsically proud of, not because it has a good sports team, or at least one that has a good stadium.

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by ggopher

Any public money needs to go towards a public benefit. The City's contribution of $200 million towards the football stadium in exhange for a field house is a , which is a resonable request for public funds from the Flames. But above that, they need to provide more of a benefit. It will take a lot of free skating nights to pay the area back.

I also don't understand how if the Flames and city combine forces to create a fieldhouse/stadium complex, why aren't there some savings for the city? They estimated a $200 million cost to build a fieldhouse on their own. The Flames "help" by joining in and creating a dual-purpose facility. The Flames mention "efficiencies" in working together, but the costs for the city remain the same? I don't understand that logic.

Originally Posted by McMurph

I completely agree. Bettman and King are looking completely out of touch. I particularly like the veiled threats and implication that the arena is a crucial catalyst for urban renewal. Oh, if only we could get the NHL all-star game we could be a world class city just like Columbus.

If the Flames want this thing built they should go away for a while and come back with a serious and well thought out proposal. Between now and then I wish they would all just shut up. My respect for the organization and the owner's group has been plummeting since their clownish announcement last year.

The Flames could have given this over to the d.talks people to create a competition like they did last year for "lost spaces". That would have been an open, and exciting competition which would have been a great conversation starter for the city as a whole. They wouldn't have to go with any of the submissions, but would have gotten thousands of great ideas out of it.

Seriously, they could have given applicants of such a competition a total of 30 minutes to create a potential design, and they would have gotten better results back than the garbage they presented last year. Jesus, I mean Ken King could have slammed down a ham sandwich on a conference room table and it would have generated more positive reactions than CalgaryNEXT.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

I also don't understand how if the Flames and city combine forces to create a fieldhouse/stadium complex, why aren't there some savings for the city? They estimated a $200 million cost to build a fieldhouse on their own. The Flames "help" by joining in and creating a dual-purpose facility. The Flames mention "efficiencies" in working together, but the costs for the city remain the same? I don't understand that logic.

Speculating: The efficiency only really comes from the extra costs of the field house being 30k spectators instead of 5-10k being absorbed through shared facilities. Building a smaller capacity field house there could be real savings the shared facilities, though probably not as much.

[suburbia]

This reminded me of Bettman coming to Nenshi for a hand-out. Watch through the whole thing, and enjoy the hand gestures from the brown guy.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2453750/store-...nces-him-to-put-gun-away-during-robbery/

[craner]

Ha - and the cop looks like Chris Jones.

[suburbia]

Nenshi is a god among mayors. So clear and articulate, and I loved how he called Bettman by his full name.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nati...e-line-on-arena-project/article28230993/

Calgary could well go ahead with this project, he says, and could even start getting their money out of it by the end of the planned tax breaks.

“But of course at that time,” he says, “Gary Bettman Junior will say, ‘This rink is 30 years old – you’ll have to build a new one.’”

[artvandelay]

I'm really not sure why Nenshi is getting so much adulation for making that unprofessional statement earlier this week. If he wants to decline a meeting, that's fine and completely understandable, but making a media spectacle about it was childish and unnecessary.

[kora]

Subsidising NFL teams: Sacking the taxpayer
The Economist
Jan 16th 2016

"29 out of 31 NFL stadiums have received public subsidies to help cover construction and renovation costs since 1995. NFL teams argue that this is justified because their presence drives consumer spending, but the academic literature says otherwise: economists argue that in the absence of sports teams, consumers would simply spend their money on other forms of entertainment. Any public subsidies for football stadiums are effectively transfers of wealth from taxpayers to NFL owners and athletes. Professional football teams don’t need the help: according to Forbes, a magazine, the average NFL team makes $76m a year in profit, with a very healthy 22% operating margin."

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

I'm really not sure why Nenshi is getting so much adulation for making that unprofessional statement earlier this week. If he wants to decline a meeting, that's fine and completely understandable, but making a media spectacle about it was childish and unnecessary.

I think people in the media are asking him these questions as there is a thirst for fairness in the public discourse about this potentially massive subsidy.

[The Urbanist]

Originally Posted by McMurph

I completely agree. Bettman and King are looking completely out of touch. I particularly like the veiled threats and implication that the arena is a crucial catalyst for urban renewal. Oh, if only we could get the NHL all-star game we could be a world class city just like Columbus.

If the Flames want this thing built they should go away for a while and come back with a serious and well thought out proposal. Between now and then I wish they would all just shut up. My respect for the organization and the owner's group has been plummeting since their clownish announcement last year.

I can't agree with you more. Their proposal was lazy and poorly executed IMO. Nenshi won't fold to these guys, so I don't see anything like this happening for quite sometime.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

I'm really not sure why Nenshi is getting so much adulation for making that unprofessional statement earlier this week. If he wants to decline a meeting, that's fine and completely understandable, but making a media spectacle about it was childish and unnecessary.

It's almost as if he's a politician and this is a calculated gamble at one of the premier election issues he'll be congratulated for or racked over the coals over

[artvandelay]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

It's almost as if he's a politician and this is a calculated gamble at one of the premier election issues he'll be congratulated for or racked over the coals over

Perhaps true, but is that an excuse for his immature communication through the media?

There's nothing wrong with opposing the project and there's nothing wrong with declining a meeting with Bettman if he truly was busy. I decline meetings all the time and do so politely without any need for dramatics. There is absolutely no reason for our mayor to be making childish, unprofessional public statements in the media. It reflects poorly on him and it reflects poorly on the city.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

Perhaps true, but is that an excuse for his immature communication through the media?

There's nothing wrong with opposing the project and there's nothing wrong with declining a meeting with Bettman if he truly was busy. I decline meetings all the time and do so politely without any need for dramatics. There is absolutely no reason for our mayor to be making childish, unprofessional public statements in the media. It reflects poorly on him and it reflects poorly on the city.

On the contrary, his video was relayed around North America as a shining example of a municipality FINALLY standing up to a Big 4 sports organization.

Say what you want about Nenshi, but his 'childish unprofessional-ism' earned him a metric shit-ton of good press

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

Perhaps true, but is that an excuse for his immature communication through the media?

There's nothing wrong with opposing the project and there's nothing wrong with declining a meeting with Bettman if he truly was busy. I decline meetings all the time and do so politely without any need for dramatics. There is absolutely no reason for our mayor to be making childish, unprofessional public statements in the media. It reflects poorly on him and it reflects poorly on the city.

Nenshi did exactly what you say: decline the meeting privately, and with no dramatics.

Bettman then came here and held a press conference making threats, then gave exclusive interviews to the media; you seem to think that's above reproach. Nenshi is asked for comment in response during a break in a public meeting - this to you is a "childish, unprofessional public statement". Are you suggesting that our mayor not talk to the media when asked direct questions? I like having elected officials give their opinions on current events relevant to their offices when asked questions by the media.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by The Urbanist

I can't agree with you more. Their proposal was lazy and poorly executed IMO. Nenshi won't fold to these guys, so I don't see anything like this happening for quite sometime.

This exactly. If you are going to ask for such a large sum of money, there was no part of their proposal that stood up to further scrutiny. The numbers proposed seemed on a paper-napkin and hardly rigorously calculated, as numerous discussions have already pointed out.

But even the site designs themselves are lacking and out of touch with the site. The best advantages were ignored wasting as a prime riverfront redevelopment opportunity, one of the last available in inner Calgary. Hell, a few members on SSP posted within hours of the announcement that showed more thought of how the site could work than what was presented.

I don't see any administration of the City passing this the way it is. Substantial redesign - both in funding scheme, scope and design is inevitable.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

On the contrary, his video was relayed around North America as a shining example of a municipality FINALLY standing up to a Big 4 sports organization.

Say what you want about Nenshi, but his 'childish unprofessional-ism' earned him a metric shit-ton of good press

On that topic I found this:

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2016/01/13...shakedown-thats-not-how-we-operate-here/

And this:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/calgary-mayor-should-be-applauded-for-staring-down-gary-bettman/

[Electrical Storm]

Ken King was at UofC's downtown campus this morning for 'Haskayne Hour'.

Overall, the focus wasn't on Calgary Next, but rather on the value of professional sports on city building. Pretty interesting stuff.