DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[The Dirt]

I thought hipsters loved the grit. They just wanted to be the first to like it before anyone else did.

[corey]

Originally Posted by Matt

The only true grit I feel in Denver - believe it or not - is biking underneath the I-70 viaduct by the stockshow complex. As we all know, even this is slated to be torn down and most likely trenched. How is anyone who genuinely loves cities *not concerned* with Denver losing its areas of grit and blight to put in flower planters and hipster cafes? Denver's soul is being sanitized in the name of "new urbanism". It's a mistake just as fatal as the DURA Skyline Improvement Project of the 1980s, and future generations will chide us for it.

One person's "grit" is another person's "shit." I don't like neighborhoods over sanitized and generic, but I also don't like filth and decay for the sake of being "urban" either. the tenderloin in SF has plenty of "grit", but it is a disgusting shit hole. I do like it under I-70 though and always thought it would be cool location as part of a movie car chase scene.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by corey

One person's "grit" is another person's "shit." I don't like neighborhoods over sanitized and generic, but I also don't like filth and decay for the sake of being "urban" either. the tenderloin in SF has plenty of "grit", but it is a disgusting shit hole. I do like it under I-70 though and always thought it would be cool location as part of a movie car chase scene.

Genuine cities should have both sides, good areas *and* gritty areas. Just as a human being can be happy and sad, optimistic or pessimistic, elated or depressed, so too should a city contain all of these emotional characteristics if we really want to stay true to ourselves. Diversity in the cityscape is what makes a city great and interesting, and prevents it from becoming stale.

On the same token, I love sunny days. But I also yearn for the occasional rainy day or a week of cool, overcast weather.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by Matt

I really don't see the problem with "blank walls". Every *established* city that Denver aspires to be has them in droves; they really add to the urban "grit" which Denver is losing as our city transforms into a fake, hipster-magnet imposter of the authentic city it used to be.

This is very true.


I was in New York last weekend and there was a massive 25 story building under construction in the lower east side with an atrocious blank wall.


I wanted to take a pic but my phone died. It was much worse than the Hyatt.

[Denver Dweller]

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29424127/aurora-targets-younger-crowd-light-rail-ruffles-older

[Denver Dweller]

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_29420867/smartening-city-denver-vies-become-whats-next

[RyanD]

The York, aka One City Block version 2.0 is underway. (212 Apartment Units)

New City Park West Project: The York

[Denver Dweller]

http://www.businessden.com/2016/01/25/developers-pitch-new-dtc-office-building/

[bunt_q]

This is why I support sprawl and roads. Because in Denver, a two story office building for a church elicits five hours of public testimony, and gets voted down by Council for being too dense and a "nightmare waiting to happen."

Sorry urbanists, but if your quest against cars and sprawl is to be seen as anything but exclusive snobbery, you have to find a way to accommodate real urban density in Denver. Otherwise, you're just advocating for Boulder.

I urge everybody to attend this week's meeting to oppose taking a lane on Broadway for bicycles. A bike lane only benefits folks who live in the area. In Denver, unless you make $100k+, you're more likely to be using Broadway as a pass-through commuter corridor than some glorious urban "place" we are trying to make. Placemaking is for the rich. Don't let them exclude the lower/middle classes from Downtown entirely by letting them commandeer our commuter corridors for their elitist playgrounds.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29430340/denver-council-wades-into-west-highland-dispute-over

[mhays]

Yeah, support the working class by making car ownership necessary!

But yes Denver could use a system where a project that's allowed by zoning can't be turned back by neighbors. Let the debate happen as a zoning discussion every decade, not on a per-project basis.

[ramanboy33]

Originally Posted by mhays

Denver could use a system where a project that's allowed by zoning can't be turned back by neighbors.

What exactly do you mean by this?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by mhays

Yeah, support the working class by making car ownership necessary!

But yes Denver could use a system where a project that's allowed by zoning can't be turned back by neighbors. Let the debate happen as a zoning discussion every decade, not on a per-project basis.

The issue was that the project wasn't allowed by zoning- the parcel was zoned for residential and not commercial.

That said, this is a great example of why Denver is becoming a playground of the rich- the ass-hatery of the residents who don't want to see any development of their precious, low-density neighborhoods thereby decreasing affordability and ensuring these fucktards get their payday when they cash out.

I'll only support a bike lane on Broadway if a dedicated transit lane is part of the mix.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I'll only support a bike lane on Broadway if a dedicated transit lane is part of the mix.

Likewise.

With transit, I think it's all going to be a great test once two neighborhoods at the opposite ends of Downtown are more 'settled in'.

If you don't provide alternatives to more than 2.8% - 3% of the people, you're going to have a car effing nightmare and it's going to be... well, hilarious.

Denver Union Station - The hub of all most Denver transit - has added / is adding:

1900 16th Street / DaVita - 1300 Parking Spaces
1601 Wewatta - 399 Parking Spaces
The Platform - 243 Parking Spaces
Cadence - 216 Parking Spaces
Pivot - 670 Parking Spaces
Elan - 469 Parking Spaces
City House - 452 Parking Spaces
1709 Chestnut - 537 Parking Spaces
Block A Hotel / Office - 210 Parking Spaces
Triangle Building - 220 Parking Spaces
Hilton Garden Inn (2 underground levels) ~ 150 Parking Spaces
1975 18th Street - 146 Parking Spaces
Union Tower West - 216 Parking Spaces
The Coloradan - 450 Parking Spaces

TOTAL: 5678 Parking Spaces!!!

You know what... I don't even need to go over Cherry Creek. It's already a car nightmare and it's going to be impossible to build dedicated transit if we don't do it like right now.

If you really think that your precious bike lanes, and less than great intercity transit (aka shuttles) are going to save Denver, then you are sadly mistaken. Five Thousand Six Hundred and Seventy Eight parking spaces in a 4 by 2 block area, considered to be the prime area for transit, that has only four street outlets. Think about that for just a second. Now place all 5,678 cars in the Union Station field. Or... More realistically around 3,500 cars. It's absolutely ridiculous!

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Likewise.

With transit, I think it's all going to be a great test once two neighborhoods at the opposite ends of Downtown are more 'settled in'.

If you don't provide alternatives to more than 2.8% - 3% of the people, you're going to have a car effing nightmare; and it's going to be... well, hilarious.

Denver Union Station - The hub of all Denver transit - has added / is adding:

1900 16th Street / DaVita - 1300 Parking Spaces
1601 Wewatta - 399 Parking Spaces
The Platform - 243 Parking Spaces
Cadence - 216 Parking Spaces
Pivot - 670 Parking Spaces
Elan - 469 Parking Spaces
City House - 452 Parking Spaces
1709 Chestnut - 537 Parking Spaces
Block A Hotel / Office - 210 Parking Spaces
Triangle Building - 220 Parking Spaces
Hilton Garden Inn (2 underground levels) ~ 150 Parking Spaces
1975 18th Street - 146 Parking Spaces
Union Tower West - 216 Parking Spaces
The Coloradan - 450 Parking Spaces

TOTAL: 5678 Parking Spaces!!!

You know what... I don't even need to go over Cherry Creek. It's already a car nightmare.

If you really think that your precious bike lanes, and less than great intercity transit (aka shuttles) are going to save Denver, then you are sadly mistaken. Five Thousand Six Hundred and Seventy Eight parking spaces in a 4 by 2 block area, considered to be the prime area for transit, that has only four street outlets.

Which is a great example why bike lanes are really Lexus lanes- because cyclists who use them are from the upper classes and are using a bicycle by choice while their car sits comfortably parked in it's own dedicated spot. Transit is for the masses, cycling is for the wealthy.

The closure of B-Cycle stations in poorer neighborhoods is another great example of cycling's position as a choice of the wealthy.

[Interzen]

^^ Ryan, Hopefully many of them will remain parked during the week but that is still an eye opening observation.

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Which is a great example why bike lanes are really Lexus lanes- because cyclists who use them are from the upper classes and are using a bicycle by choice while their car sits comfortably parked in it's own dedicated spot. Transit is for the masses, cycling is for the wealthy.

Say huh now? Have any data to back up these wild assertions?

The closure of B-Cycle stations in poorer neighborhoods is another great example of cycling's position as a choice of the wealthy.

I fail to see how you can draw that conclusion. Perhaps poor people don't want to pay for an expensive bike sharing luxury, when the alternative of owning a dedicated bike exists...seems just as likely.

Even if ALL of that were true, one needs only look to other cities around the world to see that bicycles can be successful across basically every economic line (including in climates similar to Colorado's). Even IF I thought bicycles were the exclusive domain of the wealthy in Denver (I don't), beginning to embrace the culture of bicycle commuting should absolutely be one large spoke in the multi-modal transit system of Denver's future.

We're not choosing between transit and bike lanes, and it's one hell of a strawman you guys are beating to think that it is.

[Fritzdude]

I agree that poor people probably are generally not going to be renting themselves tour bikes to commute around town, but will more than likely have a beater bike of their own. I've got a car and a bike, but would generally prefer to ride the bike if the weather is nice, but I'd like to do it in safer designated bike paths if possible.

Why is this an all or nothing scenario. Can't we have bike paths, parking, and density at the same time. At least we're getting away from surface lot parking and hiding the cars within buildings now.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by enjo13

We're not choosing between transit and bike lanes, and it's one hell of a strawman you guys are beating to think that it is.

I will argue that we are. How many dedicated transit lanes have been put on Denver's streets in the last five years? How many routes have seen an increase in frequency and had route upgrades to decrease trip time? None.

We've spent five years building a cycling infrastructure in Denver, mostly through the wealthy neighborhoods, but are just now beginning to study what transit improvements should be made. So we're probably five years away from seeing any kind of meaningful improvements. Granted, cycling is a low-hanging fruit given the capital cost of a cycling lane versus upgrades to a bus line, but we're still a decade behind cycling in terms of implementation.

People think that Denver is doing great on embracing multi-modal transportation. Just expanding cycling options doesn't do that.

It Doesn't matter though because it's the same old ad nauseum argument where once side, the "Denver Yay!" side, says we're doing it right while the other, the "Curmudgeonly Bunt's" side, rails against Denver along with vegan milk and god knows what else.

[PLANSIT]

Is holding the bike lanes hostage the right strategy though?

Broadway is one of the few corridors that can accommodate multiple modes well. Bike lanes aren't just about people thru-put. They also can be economic development and placemaking tools. Same with transit, if done right.

The study is examining transit improvements as well. Things still on the table include busbulbs, shelters, and exclusive lane expansion (Peak vs All-day), TSP, etc.

These near-term improvements don't preclude a grander vision for the corridor. The new transit plan will look at enhanced transit on the corridor in more detail. This is just the beginning.

The transit stuff is a bit buried in the conversation because it's being dominated by the bike community. Need more folks to show up and address the transit needs.

How many people on here showed up the Colfax BRT meetings?

[bunt_q]

Nevermind. There's no changing central Denver. You'll all burn in hell, you all, and Boulderites. Worst people in the world.