NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[BBMW]

The deal to trade the theater to the state in return for state pushing through a renewal of MSG's operating agreement is a done deal. Whether the state can/will come up with the money to actually execute the project to use this space to rework Penn Station is up in the air. Cuomo seems to be planning on it.

Originally Posted by pico44

Well, which is it? Is it a "done deal" or could you "easily see this happening"?

[yankeesfan1000]

^ How are you so sure it's a done deal?

[BBMW]

Because they wouldn't be making such a big announcement if there wasn't an agreement.

[drumz0rz]

I like that people are thinking about upgrades to Penn but I think this is still short sighted. So we built a grand vaulted glass entry way where you can revel in all that open space for the 12 seconds it takes for you to walk from the door to the escalator that then takes you back down into the same clustered rat's nest that has existed since the 60s. The issue with Penn isn't how you enter the building, it's how you enter the trains, and where you wait. As long as the ugly circle and box remain above there's just nothing you can do to fix it.

[Busy Bee]

Any other society on earth, even the democtatic friends of ours, would have seized MSG with fair compensation to the owners and that would have been that. Your taking about something absolutely critical to the economic health of the city and region and we've let an entertainment coliseum sit on top of it for the benefit of one family. Absurd.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

I like that people are thinking about upgrades to Penn but I think this is still short sighted. So we built a grand vaulted glass entry way where you can revel in all that open space for the 12 seconds it takes for you to walk from the door to the escalator that then takes you back down into the same clustered rat's nest that has existed since the 60s. The issue with Penn isn't how you enter the building, it's how you enter the trains, and where you wait. As long as the ugly circle and box remain above there's just nothing you can do to fix it.

Even in the moyinahan part, there will still be the rats nest of platforms underground. You can't do anything about that. Maybe if you had glass floors or something the platforms below would get light.

The old Penn seems to have got some higher ceilings now which should improve the experience.

At least the Amtrak part, which will be in the new Monyihan section, will be a fitting entrance to NYC from other cities with its high glass roof.

The old Penn will remain mostly for comutter traffic. Not ideal, but at least it's not going to be as bad as before and they have raised the ceilings in the concourse as the renderings show, with new higher class restaurants and shops added.

People are forgetting that the new Penn South will also be required when Gateway happens. The complex as a whole will be just massive. It will be a huge trifecta of terminals linked by tunnels together.

and from the rendering, msg will be reclad at least on that side. It looks far better there.

[Busy Bee]

We need a moonshot to give NYC the grand Penn Station it deserves... because this is not it.

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by aquablue

Even in the moyinahan part, there will still be the rats nest of platforms underground. You can't do anything about that. Maybe if you had glass floors or something the platforms below would get light.

The old Penn seems to have got some higher ceilings now which should improve the experience.

At least the Amtrak part, which will be in the new Monyihan section, will be a fitting entrance to NYC from other cities with its high glass roof.

The old Penn will remain mostly for comutter traffic. Not ideal, but at least it's not going to be as bad as before and they have raised the ceilings in the concourse as the renderings show, with new higher class restaurants and shops added.

People are forgetting that the new Penn South will also be required when Gateway happens. The complex as a whole will be just massive. It will be a huge trifecta of terminals linked by tunnels together.

and from the rendering, msg will be reclad at least on that side. It looks far better there.

The other problem remains the garbage sitting on top - One Penn Plaza and MSG are revolting looking structures.

[drumz0rz]

One Penn is the tall black glass clad building spanning 33rd and 34th streets. It was outside the original Penn space and I think it's a good looking building that should stay. I think you're thinking of 2 Penn Plaza, the ugly 60s box that sits just to the west of MSG. That needs to go. I think if you consider the location of the tracks, it could be possible to build a new grand Penn Station that still includes a large office complex on the eastern end, where that building currently resides, but the offices would need to start a few stories up to allow room for a vaulted entry hall from 7th Ave.

Regarding the 'rat's nest' of platforms, there are ways to open the space up. The original Penn design had most of the platforms open from above, like an indoor train shed. Smart acoustical engineering could be applied to dampen and muffle the sounds of the trains (mostly just the the humm/roar of the AC fans) so as to not overwhelm the open space. Direct sunlight reaching at least part of the platform would be huge.

[mrnyc]

^ correct. one penn is north and outside the footprint of the original penn station. it looks fine anyway. two penn is the ugly one that sits on the site, to the east side of msg. i am surprized it isn't coming down with this new cuomo plan. you could bring a lot of light in below via that cheap pos bldg's space.

[CityGuy87]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ correct. one penn is north and outside the footprint of the original penn station. it looks fine anyway. two penn is the ugly one that sits on the site, to the east side of msg. i am surprized it isn't coming down with this new cuomo plan. you could bring a lot of light in below via that cheap pos bldg's space.

One Penn looks like it's gonna get a reclad based on some of the renderings released by the governor.

[aquablue]

The only thing that strikes me as stupid is the massive new grand entrance that just leads you down to the basement. Travelers won't be lingering around much there, they will be on their way down the stairs. Why spend so much money on a big glass entry way when you are going to end up down in the bowels of the earth under low ceilings once again?

[chris08876]

No surprise here. The sun might explode before we get a new Penn.
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Cuomo’s Penn Station plan already falling behind schedule

Two weeks ago, Gov. Andrew Cuomo convened the press to announce that he would achieve what governors before him had not: a transformative renovation of the much-reviled Penn Station.

Even better, he would get it done quickly, issuing a “request for proposals” to developers that same week, with responses due in 90 days.

That timeline, in fact, was one of the very few concrete details contained in an announcement that was otherwise made up mostly of history lessons and pronouncements like “Government is not a soap box. Government is a vehicle of results and action.”

“The redevelopment of Penn Station will commence this week,” Cuomo said, during the event at Madison Square Garden. "We’re not going to waste any time. We’re going to do a joint solicitation—RFP/RFEI, for people who like acronyms—by Empire State, Amtrak and the MTA for the redevelopment of Penn by a private sector developer.”

But those solicitations have yet to be issued, as promised.

It’s not clear what the hold-up is.

The governor’s office referred questions to Empire State Development, which had no comment. Nor did Amtrak.

A subheadline in the press release accompanying the announcement read: “Solicitations Being Issued to Developers This Week, Due Back in 90 Days; Groundbreaking Targeted for This Year.”

"Lots of people are asking about this, and wondering where the plan is," emailed Maura Moynihan, the daughter of the late U.S. Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, whose vision for transforming the James A. Farley Post Office into a train hall is now central to Cuomo's own proposal. "Of course we are all desperate to see Penn Station raised from its current despicable condition which punishes every commuter who must brave The Pit — so we are hoping more news from Albany will be forthcoming!"

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http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/al...ion-plan-already-falling-behind-schedule

[Cynicism]

.

[chris08876]

Some more renderings:










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http://www.dezeen.com/2016/01/15/som-ima...-moynihan-train-hall-expansion-new-york/

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

One Penn is the tall black glass clad building spanning 33rd and 34th streets. It was outside the original Penn space and I think it's a good looking building that should stay. I think you're thinking of 2 Penn Plaza, the ugly 60s box that sits just to the west of MSG. That needs to go. I think if you consider the location of the tracks, it could be possible to build a new grand Penn Station that still includes a large office complex on the eastern end, where that building currently resides, but the offices would need to start a few stories up to allow room for a vaulted entry hall from 7th Ave.

Regarding the 'rat's nest' of platforms, there are ways to open the space up. The original Penn design had most of the platforms open from above, like an indoor train shed. Smart acoustical engineering could be applied to dampen and muffle the sounds of the trains (mostly just the the humm/roar of the AC fans) so as to not overwhelm the open space. Direct sunlight reaching at least part of the platform would be huge.

The problem with open platforms is trains dumping all of their heat directly into the concourse. With Penn Station as it is now, passengers waiting for trains are mostly shielded from that.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by BBMW

Because they wouldn't be making such a big announcement if there wasn't an agreement.

They never made such an announcement. It's a proposal, one of many, and is getting attacked from all sides, because the theater isn't the problem, it's the entire MSG that's the problem.

You cannot fix Penn Station without moving MSG. Simple as that. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. That's why most people agree MSG has to move.

[TonyNYC]

Originally Posted by Crawford

They never made such an announcement. It's a proposal, one of many, and is getting attacked from all sides, because the theater isn't the problem, it's the entire MSG that's the problem.

You cannot fix Penn Station without moving MSG. Simple as that. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. That's why most people agree MSG has to move.

The plans for that were in place 8-10 years ago.. MSG was going to move to the west side of the Farley Post office, The Old garden torn down to accommodate a new Penn Station and supertall!

Too bad they didn't go forward with it.. stalled out and the Dolans then dropped 1 billion dollars on a three yer gutting and rebuild of the interior of MSG.

Wasted opportunity... like always when it comes to too many players involved.

[sparkling]

Penn Station Overhaul Is Now One Step Closer to Happening

Monday, January 25, 2016
Amy Plitt

Just a couple of weeks after Governor Andrew Cuomo announced plans to transform Penn Station and the James A. Farley Post Office (to the tune of $3 billion), the Empire State Development Corporation has released a Request For Proposals (RFP) for the site, now called Empire Station Complex. The RFP outlines the project sponsors (which include the ESD, along with Cuomo, the MTA, and Amtrak) plans to create an "iconic new passenger rail complex and mixed-use destination in the heart of New York City."



Per the RFP, "the status quo at Penn Station is no longer adequate to meet the needs of today's passenger" (that's the understatement of the decade), and so the project sponsors have set out a number of proposed updates to the complex. The 65-page document (available here, in PDF form) goes into extremely thorough detail on what the revamped train depot could look like, with different sections for overhauls of Penn Station and the Farley Post Office (now called the Moynihan Train Hall). Here's some of what that will entail:

· The Penn Station plans call for the creation of a "grand entrance" along Eighth Avenue, which would mean demolishing the Theater at MSG and adding retail to the entrance area. (The RFP is using Skidmore, Owings & Merrill's renderings for the additions and improvements.)

· Connecting the complex to Penn Station South and the infrastructure proposed as part of the Gateway Program, as seen in the map above.

· Another "grand entrance" along Seventh Avenue could also be part of the plan.

· The station itself would be opened up, with new skylights, along with an improved configuration for passengers on the upper and lower levels of Penn Station.

· The two terminals would be linked via a concourse, which is currently under construction beneath the Farley Post Office.

· The Moynihan Train Hall will have 210,000 square feet of space, including "primary facilities for LIRR commuters," including ticket booths, waiting areas, and other amenities.

· The revamped hall could also be home to office spaces and even a hotel, along with services for AirTrain and Amtrak commuters (including ticket booths and a waiting area).

And that's just a small portion of what's potentially to come. According to the Real Deal, Related Companies, which has been attached to the project for several years, will be submitting a proposal; Vornado Realty Trust, which was also working on the development, declined to comment. TRD also reports that Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, which has been working on the Penn redevelopment plans since the 1960s, is still attached to the project (its renderings of the Empire Station Complex are all over the RFP), but if the developer that's ultimately chosen wants to bring in their own architect, that's a possibility.

Developers who wish to submit proposals can do so for either Penn Station, the Farley Post Office, or both; proposals are due by April 22

[drumz0rz]

Originally Posted by Submariner

The problem with open platforms is trains dumping all of their heat directly into the concourse. With Penn Station as it is now, passengers waiting for trains are mostly shielded from that.

Is that a problem though? Heat rises, so open platforms would be great to heat the space above. Looking at the moynihan station renders, there are a few floors of space above the terminal concourse which I believe currently are mostly vacant space. You could fairly easily design a cooling system designed to vent excess heat and cool the air when necessary.

Why waste that excess heat when you can recapture it to heat the terminal? There are plenty of other examples of large enclosed spaces which rely on operational use for heating and air circulation, the mall of america is a good example.