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  #4781  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2016, 4:42 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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How much did the library cost and what was the funding arrangement?
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  #4782  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2016, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
How much did the library cost and what was the funding arrangement?
Way too much (a number approaching $60 million all-in) and it all came from one group, the taxpayer.
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  #4783  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2016, 2:09 PM
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London, UK, has only in the past year or so returned to its pre-WWII population days, and has been building the Underground since before surface buses were a dream of GM/Firestone.

Its hardly comparable to Halifax.
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  #4784  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2016, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post

I think it makes complete sense to measure Halifax on a CMA basis, given that our biggest struggle is business parks located within those boundaries. It really doesn't matter if Sheet Harbour or Cole Harbour are included in the Halifax "outside the core" metric, because office space there is negligible. Arguably, this approach best captures the city's challenges.
Sure, but office space is distributed not according to city boundaries, but economic regions. The Halifax CMA is an economic region. The GTA is an equivalent economic region, whereas the City of Toronto is only a fraction of that larger region, equivalent perhaps to the peninsula and downtown Dartmouth/Bedford.

So if we look at the Halifax CMA and say "43% of the office space is downtown," we can only compare that by looking at the entire Toronto CMA and seeing how much space is downtown. Given that apparently only 53% of the City of Toronto's office space is downtown, once you include all the office parks and everything else in the 905, I'd wager downtown TO has something like one quarter of the region's office space. Vancouver is an even more extreme example, with the city proper representing an even smaller fraction of the office market.

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By contrast, I don't think it's unfair to exclude other actual cities in Toronto's mapping, given that Brampton and Mississauga were previously stand alone cities just swallowed by Toronto's outgrowth of sprawl, and then connected for municipal administrative reasons. Admittedly, there are places that are caught in HRM, but saying Brampton should be included is like arguing Truro should be considered in Halifax's study boundary. Seeing as how I can get to Truro in a 40min commute, which is the same commute for coming downtown Toronto from Etobicoke on the Bloor line.
I think Brampton and Mississauga are really more like Cole Harbour and Eastern Passage, etc. They were all standalone towns, which only grew to their present size due to urban proximity. They're directly adjacent to the city proper, connected by transit, and are a major part of the commuter shed. They're formerly independent towns that have become suburbs of the larger city. Whereas Truro, an hour's drive away and unconnected by transit, would be more like Barrie or something.


At some point, the huge size discrepancy between these places makes comparisons difficult (I mean, Mississauga alone is bigger than HRM). And there's no doubt that our business parks have become an impediment to downtown. But still, we've got to compare apples to apples.
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  #4785  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2016, 4:17 PM
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The reflections on the glass is amazing at sunrise and sunset.







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  #4786  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2016, 4:46 PM
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The reflections on the glass is amazing at sunrise and sunset.

No doubt that will be the next thing people complain about. Look for a new Bousquet piece on the subject shortly.
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  #4787  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2016, 7:29 PM
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No doubt that will be the next thing people complain about. Look for a new Bousquet piece on the subject shortly.
A preview of things to come:

Video Link
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  #4788  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2016, 9:19 PM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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A preview of things to come:

*snip*

Also, "the Nova Centre will melt your Jaguar!!!"

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-23930675
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  #4789  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 1:15 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Way too much (a number approaching $60 million all-in) and it all came from one group, the taxpayer.
Interesting.

I'm pro library, but I can't understand how somebody can be pro-library and anti stadium or NC given the fact that the other two are truly income generating (regardless of subsidy). All infrastructure like libraries, hospitals, trade/convention venues, and sports facilities are necessary... its just some do bring more people in and generate revenue (if anything, by property taxes).
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  #4790  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 9:49 AM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
How much did the library cost and what was the funding arrangement?
The library's capital cost was $57.6 million, of which $18.3 million came from the feds' Building Canada Fund, and $13 million from the province. HRM put in $23.7 million, most of which ($15.5 million) came from land sales. Corporate and private donations contributed $2.6 million.

Last edited by ns_kid; Jan 22, 2016 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Corrected error in donation amount.
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  #4791  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 9:54 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
The library's capital cost was $57.6 million, of which $18.3 million came from the feds' Building Canada Fund, and $13 million from the province. HRM put in $23.7 million, most of which ($15.5 million) came from land sales. $4.3 million came from corporate and private donations.
Seems completely appropriate. Given the breakdown, NC seems to be a good deal too!

As long as the federal money comes in for projects, the rest of Canada is paying a fairly large chunk! Not bad!
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  #4792  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 10:28 AM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Seems completely appropriate. Given the breakdown, NC seems to be a good deal too!

As long as the federal money comes in for projects, the rest of Canada is paying a fairly large chunk! Not bad!
The other thing we have to realize is that this is the only way we get federal infrastructure funding. If we don't come up with the projects, and if we don't chip in for sizeable portions of them, we get nothing and the money goes to other cities instead. I think we've lost out many many times for this reason, often on the public's mistake belief (and political pressure) that if we don't spend the federal 50 million (or whatever) on a stadium (or whatever), we'll get to spend it on a hospital instead. Nope - we just won't get it at all.

The question remains though, can we afford to spend our own 13+23.7=36.7 million just to get the other (federal) 18.3 million? Many people will still feel strongly that the answer is no, even though the ship has sailed.
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  #4793  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Seems completely appropriate. Given the breakdown, NC seems to be a good deal too!

As long as the federal money comes in for projects, the rest of Canada is paying a fairly large chunk! Not bad!

We had this discussion umpteen times over in the library thread. The reality is that a project costing half as much would have served the same purpose, except for massaging certain egos.

A senior provincial bureaucrat once told me that a big part of why the NS debt is so high is due to chasing federal money for projects that might not be our top priority with provincial money we do not have, and having to borrow to get the matching funds. Likely a lot of truth in that.
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  #4794  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
A senior provincial bureaucrat once told me that a big part of why the NS debt is so high is due to chasing federal money for projects that might not be our top priority with provincial money we do not have, and having to borrow to get the matching funds. Likely a lot of truth in that.
I don't know about that. If you crunch the debt numbers per province over the past decade, our debt has grown more slowly than every other indebted province. People talk about NS as a fiscal basket case, but our debt levels increased about 25-30% in the past decade, even as many other provinces have seen per-capita debt loads more than double, and servicing costs go up.
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  #4795  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 5:34 PM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
We had this discussion umpteen times over in the library thread. The reality is that a project costing half as much would have served the same purpose, except for massaging certain egos.

A senior provincial bureaucrat once told me that a big part of why the NS debt is so high is due to chasing federal money for projects that might not be our top priority with provincial money we do not have, and having to borrow to get the matching funds. Likely a lot of truth in that.
I wonder if anyone has such an analysis; it's a valid point.

If one of my wealthier friends tells me he'll chip in $40K for that Cayman S I've been drooling over, as long as I chip in the other $40K - well, I'm still not getting the Cayman, because I don't have $40K.

On the other hand, I'm always going to be left thinking, "oh my god, how did I ever pass up $40K and a new Cayman?? What's wrong with me?? I just spent 30K on a VW anyway, why couldn't I have gone that one step further?"

It's a real conundrum. On a strict "affordability" basis, you're quite right - if we can't afford it, we can't afford it. But then we keep missing out, over and over, continue to look like and feel like the poor cousins without the wonderful public goodies that the other "real" cities with "progress" have.

Where's the balance? (Rhetorical question.)

Last edited by portapetey; Jan 22, 2016 at 5:46 PM.
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  #4796  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 5:36 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
The library's capital cost was $57.6 million, of which $18.3 million came from the feds' Building Canada Fund, and $13 million from the province. HRM put in $23.7 million, most of which ($15.5 million) came from land sales. Corporate and private donations contributed $2.6 million.
Thanks for posting this. It looks like we got a good deal in Halifax - a $57.6M building for $23.7M...
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  #4797  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 5:44 PM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Thanks for posting this. It looks like we got a good deal in Halifax - a $57.6M building for $23.7M...
That's how I look at it too.

But to Keith's point, could we really afford even the $23.7?

It's an interesting question, and like most interesting questions I don't think there's a clean answer.

How do we assess whether we got our money's worth? What's the value of a monumental civic building to the community? Clearly, to some people, there is no value. To others, there's no price too big.
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  #4798  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 6:14 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Originally Posted by portapetey View Post

But to Keith's point, could we really afford even the $23.7 million?
Yes.
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  #4799  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 6:57 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by portapetey View Post
That's how I look at it too.

But to Keith's point, could we really afford even the $23.7?

It's an interesting question, and like most interesting questions I don't think there's a clean answer.

How do we assess whether we got our money's worth? What's the value of a monumental civic building to the community? Clearly, to some people, there is no value. To others, there's no price too big.
The city can definitely afford that... especially to capture the extra funding.
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  #4800  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2016, 6:59 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Thanks for posting this. It looks like we got a good deal in Halifax - a $57.6M building for $23.7M...
That's why NC is also a good deal... or proportionally an even better deal a whole building with 1/3 of the cost for the city. NC will also recover some of its costs through the property taxes on the private components and the operations.

Now, if only we could get a stadium or transit deal in place! It has to be next on the agenda.
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