Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

Here's another piece of their brilliance. Some background: Paint (faint line on left) was washed off with one hose washing not even the steam system they will supposedly use in future.



RPB Comment: It looks like shit. I want no lines. This is not acceptable, garden hose or not. Show me results with 100% results. I would cancel my season tickets if I see this shit come 2016!!!

I hate to say it but I don't really think that most of the indignation over the pitch is really that knowledgeable or sincere.

People wanted a lightning rod issue to get angry over because they didn't want to share their stadium with the Argos no matter what.

The pitch fit the bill.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

I really hope you're right but that might be a bit too enthusiastic. Toronto has changed so much since back in the days when the Argos were a huge deal and I don't think they'll ever be that popular again.

The only thing that concerns me is they are returning to a spot that everyone hated back in the 80's. I know the stadium is a thousand times better than "the mistake by the lake" but I wonder what will happen once the novelty wears off. Really hope it turns out to be a huge success because the CFL needs a strong presence in their biggest market IMO.

Fair enough, The Argos will never be the leafs/raps/jays But They don't have to be. They need 5000 More fans to Show up to home games. If Ottawa and Hamilton and Montreal can achieve this, Toronto will too. If 1 direction came to town and Didn't tell anyone about it they wouldn't sell out the ACC either. 2-3 years ago the Argos were doing fine under braley in the worst game day atmosphere in the league. Now they are going to have better dates, A huge marketing push and a New suitable venue. You're trying to gain 25% of your paying game day fans. They already have 10,000 commitments and haven't even opened up the market yet. It's safe to say the Argos have already achieved what they are setting out to do without lifting a finger. The excitement is selling itself. You're right T.O has changed but if Ottawa can teach you anything it's that a well managed game day experience can draw a new fanbase over night. Combine that with a successful team and The argos may outgrow BMO in it's current set up faster than TFC will.

I was listening to an interview and they said The argos will have a tailgate experience like no other. Not just a patch of parking lot with a beer garden but a place where families can bring the kids earlier and the rowdy's can come pre drink. something for everyone before and during the game. They are really committed to this

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

Unlike RPB, I'm trying not to make outrageous predictions but I do think it will work well for the Argos and a perfect storm seems to be brewing in their favour for a change. 25k and they're a success.

The Argos have averaged 25K many seasons at Skydome. But the difference between venues is that at Skydome, 25K is still not quite half full with a loud echo and little atmosphere. By contrast, 25K at BMO will give you a IWS/Mosaic Stadium feel of a packed house.

Back in the 90s, Frank Cosentino predicted that smaller, more intimate stadiums were the future for the CFL. I didn't believe him at the time, but it turns out he was right. The only two "big" stadiums left in the CFL are the ones in Edmonton and Vancouver, and both of those are holdovers from the CFL's late 70s/early 80s attendance heyday.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I hate to say it but I don't really think that most of the indignation over the pitch is really that knowledgeable or sincere.

People wanted a lightning rod issue to get angry over because they didn't want to share their stadium with the Argos no matter what.

The pitch fit the bill.

It's patently obvious that this is just a handy cover for the emotional distress that TFC fans are in over being disabused of the idea that BMO is supposed to be their exclusive little soccer only stadium.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Fair enough, The Argos will never be the leafs/raps/jays

I'd say the Leafs and Jays rule over Toronto and the Raptors, TFC and Argos (in no particular order) fight over the remaining scraps.

The Raptors and TFC have much better marketing on their side plus the sexiness for many Canadians that comes with a league that has American teams in it (Big Time).

The Argos marketing and brand image suck and I suppose they have history and glory on their side but among the majority demographic it would appear that this is as much a liability as it is a plus.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd say the Leafs and Jays rule over Toronto and the Raptors, TFC and Argos (in no particular order) fight over the remaining scraps.

The Raptors and TFC have much better marketing on their side plus the sexiness for many Canadians that comes with a league that has American teams in it (Big Time).

The Argos marketing and brand image suck and I suppose they have history and glory on their side but among the majority demographic it would appear that this is as much a liability as it is a plus.

Nah 3 years ago i would agree but you are really underestimating the love the raps have in Toronto and Canada. between a few winning seasons, Drake sitting sideline and the "We the north" Campaign The raptors have taken a huge chunk out of the sports landscape in Toronto. Gone are the days when you had to purchase raps season tickets if you wanted premium seats at leaf games as part of a "package deal".

(and no i'm not making that up) ^

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Nah 3 years ago i would agree but you are really underestimating the love the raps have in Toronto and Canada. between a few winning seasons, Drake sitting sideline and the "We the north" Campaign The raptors have taken a huge chunk out of the sports landscape in Toronto. Gone are the days when you had to purchase raps season tickets if you wanted premium seats at leaf games as part of a "package deal".

(and no i'm not making that up) ^

I'll stand corrected but I don't think TV ratings and public opinion polls would support that on consistent basis.

I think that certain teams can have an upsurge of interest when they go through a successful period but then it drops.

The Blue Jays are in such a peak wave at the moment, and the Raptors would have appeared very strong during their playoff drive.

You have to look beyond these blips and over the longer term to see where teams truly fall on the pecking order.

If you polled people in the Ottawa area in November the RedBlacks would probably have been close to the Senators in popularity. I doubt that has any basis in reality.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

This has nothing to do with the turf, This is an inferiority complex. They know the CFL is on it's way too a big deal in Toronto again, they have all the facts and stats and polls and TV rating and attendance history to prove that. They just can't stand the fact that TFC is about to be over shadowed by the Argos. That's it, plain and simple. The Argos will over shadow TFC

I'm with tomthumb2, I think you are being over enthusiastic and, to me, it makes it seem the inferiority complex is going both ways. The thread is about stadiums and the conversation should be about if the two organizations can share a stadium rather than which team will be more prominent in the future.

Originally Posted by elly63

Also after they reinforced with Desso Michael Owen said it was a far better surface than before.

I wouldn't really be using Owen as a spokesperson...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

If Ottawa and Hamilton and Montreal can achieve this, Toronto will too.

I am not sure about Ottawa and Hamilton as they don't have big city pretentions.

But Montreal is a good case study relative to Toronto as it too has pretentions about being sophisticated, worldly, blablabla.

I am not joking when I say the CFL Alouettes were arguably more popular than the MLB Expos in the final years of pro baseball in Montreal.

Of course, Montreal is a bit different to Toronto in that homegrown stuff (be it TV, movies, sports, etc.) has less of an inferiority stigma attached to it, but still... if the Alouettes could get Montrealers and Quebecers interested in the CANADIAN Football League, I'd say there is no reason things can't turn around in Toronto as well.

Within modest expectations of course.

Now, the recent problems of the Alouettes also show what can happen when you neglect your product. For some reason the Alouettes have very clearly taken the foot off the gas pedal when it comes to marketing and visibility, and they are now paying the price.

And L'Impact are coming up behind them really fast.

All good lessons for the Argos.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

That picture is of the Desso surface - from October 2014

Yes, I know, I have heard all the disasters from the TFC folk on groundsharing. But like aircraft, on occasion planes do crash, does that make air travel unsafe? And sometimes you will get a bad playing surface (for the reasons explained above) re overusage and bedding in. Proper scheduling and giving the turf time to heal is the only cure, it shouldn't be that big an issue at BMO.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All good lessons for the Argos.

The leadership (Copeland/Moore) know what they are getting in to and I think are well prepared, and from what I'm reading, up to the challenge. They are waiting for the schedule (mid February?) before you see the blitz. I think these two have been planning this for a long time (the Argo sale was rumoured for a year)

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think that certain teams can have an upsurge of interest when they go through a successful period but then it drops.

The Blue Jays are in such a peak wave at the moment, and the Raptors would have appeared very strong during their playoff drive.

Amen

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Raptors and TFC have much better marketing on their side plus the sexiness for many Canadians that comes with a league that has American teams in it (Big Time).

The Argos marketing and brand image suck and I suppose they have history and glory on their side but among the majority demographic it would appear that this is as much a liability as it is a plus.

Leafs, Raps, TFC and Argos are all marketed by the same outfit (MLSE) Yes, MLSE has been contracted to market, ticket and find sponsors for the Argos, owned by 2/3 MLSE

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

Back in the 90s, Frank Cosentino predicted that smaller, more intimate stadiums were the future for the CFL. I didn't believe him at the time, but it turns out he was right.

It'll be the future for every league.

I think you'll see all sports downsizing facilities and maximizing revenues on things such as partying in end zone patios, premium seating and private boxes. The TV viewing experience is so good and I think there are so many other options for people, that getting them to the stadium is going to become increasing difficult. Along with that, I can see more and more big games being on demand PPV to suck more money out of those who don't make it to the stadium or can't afford it.

That's why I see the much maligned Hamilton stadium being a wise build with its endzone patios. That is the trend.

Future NFL stadiums could feature less sitting, more standing
Mike Florio January 27, 2013

Our pal Sam Farmer of the Los Angeles Times has written an article that looks at the various challenges the NFL is facing. One of the biggest arises from persuading fans to choose to attend games over watching them at home.

Late in the item comes an intriguing prediction about the configuration of future NFL stadiums, courtesy of NFL executive V.P. of business operations Eric Grubman.

“What if a new stadium we built wasn’t 70,000, but it was 40,000 seats with 20,000 standing room?” Grubman said. “But the standing room was in a bar-type environment with three sides of screens, and one side where you see the field. Completely connected. And in those three sides of screens, you not only got every piece of NFL content, including replays, Red Zone [Channel], and analysis, but you got every other piece of news and sports content that you would like to have if you were at home.

“Now you have the game, the bar and social setting, and you have the content. What’s that ticket worth? What’s that environment feel like to a young person? Where do you want to be? Do you want to be in that seat, or do you want to be in that pavilion?”

Plenty of people would choose to be in the pavilion, if the price is right. (And if the beer isn’t priced quite so high.)

Grubman’s example, with a 70,000-seat stadium becoming a 60,000-person hybrid, reflects another inevitable reality for the NFL. To maintain the buzz of a full stadium, stadiums may need to get smaller.

“A restaurant isn’t as good if there’s only four people in there,” 49ers CEO Jed York said. “When a restaurant is hustling and bustling, it just feels better, the food tastes better because you see everybody else enjoying it. That’s the same thing for any live event. Great bands, if you don’t have a great crowd, then the band isn’t quite as good.”

He’s right — and it’s wise for the league to continuously be thinking about ways to adapt the business model to ensure that business continues to thrive, not only on TV but inside each and every stadium.

[elly63]

Aside from the last few years when Braley (in anticipation of the sale?) basically decimated the Argos' ticketing and marketing departments, the Argos have outdrawn TFC every year except this year and last and one other year where TFC had a handful more.

Once this settles the Argos will be just fine

TFC Attendance


Argo Attendance

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I hate to say it but I don't really think that most of the indignation over the pitch is really that knowledgeable or sincere.

People wanted a lightning rod issue to get angry over because they didn't want to share their stadium with the Argos no matter what.

The pitch fit the bill.

Yup, protect the exclusive tree fort at all cost.

[Oilkountry]

I guess I should think before I speak I'm not being overly optimistic at all. What I mean by over shadowing TFC is all eyes are gonna be on the Argos this season in BMO nobody is talking about the rebirth of TFC or how They can't wait for the home opener. TFC will be outshined by this rebirth of the Argos. And unless you are an MLS supporter BMO will be looked at as The Argos stadium.

As for The Argos being "BIG" in Toronto I should have reworded it. What I meant is have a presence in Toronto. The fact is unless BMO isn't sold out every game I don't think there is a way to judge how much support there is. But I honestly can't see that Stadium not filled every night. It's 25k...way less than they averaged from 04-09.

[tomthumb2]

Does anyone know how easy or difficult it is to get to BMO? Is it safe to assume that most Argos fans live in the outer regions of Toronto? If so that may be a factor in attendance. Not sure what the parking situation is down there either.

One thing for sure - the players must feel a huge sense of relief. They really over achieved last year as nomads - they should have a much better record this year if they can stay relatively healthy.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

There's a decent amount of parking around the stadium - it can be a bit of a nightmare getting out after the game but I'd say it's no different from Rogers Centre. It's nowhere near as close to Union than Rogers Centre but there is a Go Transit stop right at the stadium and the TTC has three different routes servicing the area where the stadium is.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I see

27M from the feds
8M from the province
10M from the city (plus free land worth 10M)
8M from MLSE

Seems largely public money to me.

BTW the city made it a condition of its contribution that the stadium be able to be configured for the CFL/Argos if and when this might be required.

That was the original highschool-esque stadium that barely seated 20000 with next to nothing amenities, MLSE invested considerably more than the above combined costs the last couple years. TFC support emboldened them to expand seating twice, build luxury boxes and facilities, quality heated and well drained pitch and now a new roof and lighting + sound system. We should average around 25000 attendance (judging by growth the last 2 seasons) and fully sold out seats this year so in 5 years they'll start expanding to 40,000 permanent seats given ample space in the North end and above the South and West stands.