Rapid Transit in the Halifax area

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Surely we can spend a fraction of that sort of expense to serve the densest part of our entire region.

It's frustrating because there's likely a pretty simple rapid transit solution for the city that would be an absolute slam dunk. I am thinking of something like streetcars/LRT with dedicated right of ways and signal priority on the peninsula. It would maybe cost in the hundreds of millions and hugely improve the level of transit service for many people. The city doesn't seem to be interested though, or there's some political reason why buses and ferries are the only transit that is allowed in the region.

I also think that now's the time for this since the Cogswell interchange is coming down and the ferry terminal is getting old. There's an opportunity to bring better transit and a proper intermodal terminal. Imagine how great it would be if the Scotia Square renovations tied in with a big transit terminal, Granville Mall, and the weird dead zone behind Purdy's Wharf.

[scryer]

Thank you so much Hali for saving me pages of embarrassment!

Back to the rapid transit discussion....

The biggest problem with doing a streetcar system or LRT with right-of-way traffic signalling is that it usually ceases to function as rapid transit 90% of the time. This is actually happening in our own country, right now, in Edmonton. So let's not make that mistake . Listen, I am all for streetcars but not as rapid transit.

A really big factor that I considered when designing the Atlantic line, was maintaining rapid transit through established neighbourhoods. My main reason for putting most of the system underground was to not disturb these established neighbourhoods (except for the construction) and to keep the trains grade-separated.

All in all, from the outside looking in, I think that Halifax needs to grow more before a rapid transit system could be adequately funded and maintained. From the forums I can see that there is a good number of downtown/peninsula developments. I don't live in the area, but are these projects indicative of Halifax developing into a more dense metropolis (as opposed to a more sprawled out one)?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by scryer

Thank you so much Hali for saving me pages of embarrassment!

Back to the rapid transit discussion....

The biggest problem with doing a streetcar system or LRT with right-of-way traffic signalling is that it usually ceases to function as rapid transit 90% of the time. This is actually happening in our own country, right now, in Edmonton.

This is true, and apparently the Edmonton example is pretty terrible.

The way I see it, it wouldn't be true rapid transit on peninsula, but something more akin to Calgary's downtown LRT, or Toronto's St. Clair streetcar. They're both pretty zippy through traffic. I've been taking the 7 Gottingen bus every day this past week, at rush hour. It takes only about 20 minutes to get from South and Robie up to the Hydrostone, travelling along some of our busiest streets: South, Barrington, Cogswell, Gottingen.

If a bus takes only that long, I can't imagine an LRT getting too badly bunged up if it has a ROW and signal priority.

Off peninsula, I'm sure we can find a dedicated ROW with no intersecting roads.

Originally Posted by scryer

All in all, from the outside looking in, I think that Halifax needs to grow more before a rapid transit system could be adequately funded and maintained. From the forums I can see that there is a good number of downtown/peninsula developments. I don't live in the area, but are these projects indicative of Halifax developing into a more dense metropolis (as opposed to a more sprawled out one)?

It very much seems that way, but we might need to wait a few more years to see if this is a sustained trend or a one-off blip. (I suspect the former).

I don't think we're going to get a huge rapid-transit system to all points on the city map, but one line through the most densely populated corridors seems doable.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by scryer

The biggest problem with doing a streetcar system or LRT with right-of-way traffic signalling is that it usually ceases to function as rapid transit 90% of the time. This is actually happening in our own country, right now, in Edmonton. So let's not make that mistake . Listen, I am all for streetcars but not as rapid transit.

The new line in Edmonton seems like a case study in all the things that could possibly go wrong with that kind of system, and we should definitely be careful to avoid their mistakes. However, I think that a system that's mostly at-grade (in its own ROW, but with intersections etc) would work in Halifax (the older Edmonton line and the C-Train both seem to work exponentially better than that). Burying or raising small sections of it (1-2km total) might make sense downtown or in areas where it's difficult to provide an ROW at ground level. A significant difference is that Halifax's urban form is quite different from Edmonton's (which is arguably the most spread-out city in Canada, with a lot of wasted space). So the train can afford to be a bit slower than "true" rapid transit because the distances covered don't necessarily have to be as vast, and the stations could be closer together.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Hali87

The new line in Edmonton seems like a case study in all the things that could possibly go wrong with that kind of system, and we should definitely be careful to avoid their mistakes. However, I think that a system that's mostly at-grade (in its own ROW, but with intersections etc) would work in Halifax (the older Edmonton line and the C-Train both seem to work exponentially better than that). Burying or raising small sections of it (1-2km total) might make sense downtown or in areas where it's difficult to provide an ROW at ground level. A significant difference is that Halifax's urban form is quite different from Edmonton's (which is arguably the most spread-out city in Canada, with a lot of wasted space). So the train can afford to be a bit slower than "true" rapid transit because the distances covered don't necessarily have to be as vast, and the stations could be closer together.

Knowing some folks in the Edmonton Transportation Planning section - some of the problems going on there had to do with mid-construction variances from designs and substandard construction. It's a whole mess frankly that will take a while to fix for sure so while it's good to learn from it; I wouldn't use it as a great example until it's fixed and fully functional.

One of my biggest pet peeves with the new LRT line in Edmonton is that the SAIT station was located in a location next to SAIT that would only allow a max 3 car station - all of the stations in the ETS LRT system are designed for 5. Rather than actually pushing it a little west onto the Blatchford Site (former City Centre Airport) where it could be bigger or perhaps reworking the road access, they temporarily constrained that LRT line. So during peak times you see 4 and 5 car trains for the original line and then along comes this sad 3 car train for SAIT and it gets so packed if it's heading south. That's a head scratcher.

Other thing to keep in mind about streetcars (like the TTC) is that they aren't necessarily intended to move as fast as cars - it's realized they move slow because of stop lights, traffic etc. One of the ironies that was lost when Rob Ford kept trying to push to get the streetcars torn up in Toronto is that they carry more people then all the Go Trains combined!

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Knowing some folks in the Edmonton Transportation Planning section - some of the problems going on there had to do with mid-construction variances from designs and substandard construction. It's a whole mess frankly that will take a while to fix for sure so while it's good to learn from it; I wouldn't use it as a great example until it's fixed and fully functional.

But you can even learn from procedural problems - avoid introducing variances mid-construction (or deal with them differently than how they were dealt with in Edmonton), don't cheap out on construction, etc.

Also, the process of "how they fix it" at this point will be interesting to watch.


Edit: you mean NAIT, right?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Other thing to keep in mind about streetcars (like the TTC) is that they aren't necessarily intended to move as fast as cars - it's realized they move slow because of stop lights, traffic etc. One of the ironies that was lost when Rob Ford kept trying to push to get the streetcars torn up in Toronto is that they carry more people then all the Go Trains combined!

Yeah, streetcars are slow beasts. People who haven't experienced them tend to over-estimate how fast they get around, but they're all about capacity, not speed. During Toronto's rush hour, you can often easily out-walk the King and Queen streetcars over a distance of several kilometres, and I'm not exaggerating.

The St. Clair and Spadina lines are much faster, owing to ROWs and signal priority. Still local transit though, not rapid transit.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Yeah, streetcars are slow beasts. People who haven't experienced them tend to over-estimate how fast they get around, but they're all about capacity, not speed. During Toronto's rush hour, you can often easily out-walk the King and Queen streetcars over a distance of several kilometres, and I'm not exaggerating.

The St. Clair and Spadina lines are much faster, owing to ROWs and signal priority. Still local transit though, not rapid transit.

I remember asking for directions once in downtown Toronto and someone pointed me in the right direction and mentioned, "If you wait here for 10 minutes you can just take the streetcar!"

The destination was about a 7 minute walk away...

[Keith P.]

Streetcars are an 1800s solution to mass transit. Nostalgic, but not particularly useful these days.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Streetcars are an 1800s solution to mass transit. Nostalgic, but not particularly useful these days.

I agree.

I don't think that any streetcar(-like) system is purposed for mass transit for cities of today. In my fantasy I also had the future (after the Atlantic line) considered... that of Halifax being more densely populated with more cars and a real need for rapid transit.

[Hali87]

The problem is that people tend to conflate the technology (streetcars = trains, trains = fast) with the function (streetcars are basically buses that can't change course). You could put provisions in place to make streetcars faster, and you could generally do the exact same things for buses. They are sometimes smoother or higher-capacity than buses, but not always.

A streetcar system could be fast, but it's not inherently fast. You would need to make some very deliberate design choices in order to make it fast. A lot of people don't seem to realize this.

There's also the (annoying to me) semantic debate as to what qualifies as "Rapid Transit" "LRT" or "streetcar", but basically if you design a streetcar in such a way that it doesn't have to deal with the problems that most buses deal with, then it's an LRT system, not a streetcar.

[scryer]

For me (and keep in mind that this is subjective):

Streetcar = Basically a larger bus on the street with minimal grade separation. Essentially used to replace buses on a busier route to move more people and this solution assumes that the city is forecasting that they will continually keep the route the same. Toronto comes to mind here.

LRT = Can hold more people than a streetcar and is designed to be a rapid transit solution. They can be grade-integrated (like Edmonton and Calgary's lines) or grade separated (like Ottawa's Confederation line or most of the Eglinton Crosstown in Toronto).

Rapid Transit = A transit solution that aims at taking cars off the street by providing an alternative transit option that connects key areas of the metro area together. It can take the form of many transit solutions such as LRT, RRT (like a subway or Skytrain), or BRT.

BRT = This technology aims at quickly addressing congestion by having bus-only roads that are grade-separated for the most part. This isn't necessarily considered a long-term solution as rail technology usually replaces BRT. The only city that I know of that uses this technology in Canada, is Winnipeg.... and that is a very badly designed solution in that city.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by scryer

Streetcar = Basically a larger bus on the street with minimal grade separation. Essentially used to replace buses on a busier route to move more people and this solution assumes that the city is forecasting that they will continually keep the route the same. Toronto comes to mind here.

This is a bit of an anachronism - buses actually replaced streetcars in most cases, not the other way around. The TTC streetcars didn't replace buses, they were just never replaced, themselves. I think there are some US systems where the streetcars (re-)replaced bus routes, but my understanding is in most of those cases the impetus (and impacts) were more related to urban revitalization than transportation demand management.

BRT = This technology aims at quickly addressing congestion by having bus-only roads that are grade-separated for the most part. This isn't necessarily considered a long-term solution as rail technology usually replaces BRT. The only city that I know of that uses this technology in Canada, is Winnipeg.... and that is a very badly designed solution in that city.

Ottawa has a very developed BRT network (the Transitway) and QC and a few cities in the 905 belt do as well, I think.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I think there are some US systems where the streetcars (re-)replaced bus routes, but my understanding is in most of those cases the impetus (and impacts) were more related to urban revitalization than transportation demand management.

They have a lot of qualitative advantages over buses. They're quieter, the ride is smoother, and they're more permanent. People tend to like modern streetcars a lot more in cities that have them. If you compare them to the diesel buses that Halifax has there are even more advantages.

Modern streetcars aren't niche or obscure at this point. There are many systems in North America and tons in Europe.

I think they could be a good option for Halifax. They provide most of the advantages of LRT at a lower cost, and their drawbacks of lower capacity and lower speed are less important. Halifax doesn't need a system running at 100 km/h, it just needs a system that isn't brought to its knees by congestion. You can make elevated routes, tunnels, or add signal priority with streetcars just as with anything else. A streetcar route running full bore without congestion would be a huge improvement over what the city has right now.

You could also have something like a general-purpose transit corridor that hosts both streetcars and buses. The streetcars would serve employment areas and neighbourhoods on the peninsula and the buses would be MetroLink-style suburban services.

[Hali87]

^I guess it's a semantics thing. To me, "streetcar" tends to imply "operating in mixed traffic" - if it doesn't operate in mixed traffic then it's LRT. Again, I could be wrong here, but the "line" between the two concepts has always been a bit blurry and that is what I would consider the main defining factor. That said, I've never really been in any cities with streetcars other than Toronto (I've been in other cities that probably do have streetcars but I didn't see or use them).

There are certainly some advantages streetcars have over buses, my point was just that these advantages usually aren't necessarily functional "move more people faster" advantages, and that streetcars aren't necessarily the logical "bus, next-generation" (because historically the opposite was true). They certainly could replace bus routes in some circumstances, but in the cases I'm familiar with it's not really accurate to say that "streetcars are a replacement for buses". Again, semantics.

Long story short; could we replace some bus routes in Halifax with some sort of rail transit? Probably. Would that be an improvement? Probably, as long as we do it right.

[someone123]

I think about it more in terms of the vehicle types and what they need in order to operate. Bombardier for example has separate tram and light rail vehicle models.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think about it more in terms of the vehicle types and what they need in order to operate. Bombardier for example has separate tram and light rail vehicle models.

I think most manufacturers do. I know Siemens, Stadler and Kinkisharyo all do as well.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

You could also have something like a general-purpose transit corridor that hosts both streetcars and buses. The streetcars would serve employment areas and neighbourhoods on the peninsula and the buses would be MetroLink-style suburban services.

Any transit solution for Halifax needs to be multi facetted:

- Street cars on the peninsula (downtown, universities, hospitals)
- Ferries connecting Dartmouth to Halifax
- Commuter rail from the VIA station along the rail corridor to Bedford (Lower Sackville, Elmsdale)
- Bus routes to less well connected neighbourhoods and the airport.

No one solution fits all..........

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Any transit solution for Halifax needs to be multi facetted:

- Street cars on the peninsula (downtown, universities, hospitals)
- Ferries connecting Dartmouth to Halifax
- Commuter rail from the VIA station along the rail corridor to Bedford (Lower Sackville, Elmsdale)
- Bus routes to less well connected neighbourhoods and the airport.

No one solution fits all..........

I completely agree... except we need buses through the railcut with small stations.

Let's call "street cars" trams (the Bombardier ones are very nice) and run them down the middle of streets like Robie to connect the entire peninsula.

Big issue: transit payment. I want pay-pass credit card payment on all forms.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I completely agree... except we need buses through the railcut with small stations.

Let's call "street cars" trams (the Bombardier ones are very nice) and run them down the middle of streets like Robie to connect the entire peninsula.

Big issue: transit payment. I want pay-pass credit card payment on all forms.

Not bad suggestions, though the bottlenecked section of Robie from Almon to Cunard makes that section unusable for this. Windsor over that stretch might be a better choice.