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  #201  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2016, 3:08 PM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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I quite like the design, and I think the "step up" from the houses on one end to the high-rise on the other end works rather nicely. I think this is quite appropriate for the neighbourhood and I hope it gets built.

I agree that we do have too many "squat" buildings in places where tall and slender would look better (the Nova Centre...), but this is not one of those places.

Last edited by portapetey; Jan 6, 2016 at 4:26 PM.
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  #202  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2016, 3:25 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Originally Posted by portapetey View Post
I quite like the design, and I think the "step up" from the houses on one end to the high-rise on the other end works rather nicely. I think this is quite appropriate for the neighbourhood and I hope it gets built.

I agree that we do have to many "squat" buildings in places where tall and slender would look better (the Nova Centre...), but this is not one of those places.
Yeah, this isn't really a tower site. It'd be a strange addition to the street to plunk a big narrow tower down here. Something with more bulk and street frontage is fine.

The design isn't amazing, but it's nothing to object to either, especially in a somewhat out-of-the-way location.
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  #203  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2016, 4:01 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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but really is it worth all the attention that it has been given?
In my opinion, no. At most it could set a vague precedent in terms of how to design developments in areas that already have both SFHs and bland 1970s towers and are adjacent to parkland, although I'd argue that the proposals around Quinpool/Robie + the St. Pat's redevelopment will be more important in this regard. This proposal is in what's already a dense part of town that could both absorb more density quite easily or continue to function very well as-is. This project itself isn't really going to make or break anything, regardless of the outcome.
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  #204  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2016, 6:05 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
In my opinion, no. At most it could set a vague precedent in terms of how to design developments in areas that already have both SFHs and bland 1970s towers and are adjacent to parkland, although I'd argue that the proposals around Quinpool/Robie + the St. Pat's redevelopment will be more important in this regard.

And the cockamamie planning process used by HRM for that site has pretty much guaranteed that the result will be more short and squat sawed-off bulky boxes that are totally unremarkable.
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  #205  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2016, 10:33 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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I would let it play out before jumping to that conclusion. FWIW I don't really think the St. Pat's site is screaming for some kind of landmark either. There should just be a sensible development that responds to the neighbourhood's/district's needs, is designed well, responds to context, and ideally introduces new design principles to the area in an effective way. Which is basically the direction things seem to be heading

I guess it also depends on how you define "short", "squat", and "unremarkable", and what your own personal vision for that site was. I wasn't holding my breath for (arbitrary?) 40-storey towers, for example, although I'm sure some were.
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  #206  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2016, 11:31 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
I would let it play out before jumping to that conclusion. FWIW I don't really think the St. Pat's site is screaming for some kind of landmark either. There should just be a sensible development that responds to the neighbourhood's/district's needs, is designed well, responds to context, and ideally introduces new design principles to the area in an effective way. Which is basically the direction things seem to be heading

I guess it also depends on how you define "short", "squat", and "unremarkable", and what your own personal vision for that site was. I wasn't holding my breath for (arbitrary?) 40-storey towers, for example, although I'm sure some were.
The planners sold Council on a process that was glacially slow, expensive, and gave the NIMYS and BANANAS in that neighborhood - where they are legion - far too much say in what could go there. What eventually results will be disappointing.
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  #207  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 12:26 AM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm optimistic, and I also have a feeling that we wouldn't necessarily be pleased by the same outcomes.

It would have been nice if the Centre Plan had been finished by now, but it isn't, and waiting for that to be done would ultimately have taken longer. I think that the fact that the city is proactively planning the site (in the absence of the Centre Plan) is a good thing, and I know that you don't. We're not going to change each other's minds here.
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  #208  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 3:40 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm optimistic, and I also have a feeling that we wouldn't necessarily be pleased by the same outcomes.

It would have been nice if the Centre Plan had been finished by now, but it isn't, and waiting for that to be done would ultimately have taken longer. I think that the fact that the city is proactively planning the site (in the absence of the Centre Plan) is a good thing, and I know that you don't. We're not going to change each other's minds here.
I worry that the Staff have no interest in a Centre Plan that operates like HRMxD, providing development certainty (I don't believe City staff were ever happy with HRMxD, as it removed a lot their hard and soft power in development decisions about height, etc).

Instead, the Centre Plan has sat dormant for years, while HRM staff, instead, try these one-off "proactive" approaches, which have all ended badly, giving too much power to local NIMBYs.

Another example of the City mucking up proative planning-- Imagine Bloomfield. Literally a decade of hard work by a community group was destroyed by idiotic City staff who awarded the project to an inferior bid just because it was backed by the financial dollars of the (then) NDP Provincial Government. Now that is sitting dormant too, after NDP lost. There were several far superior private sector bids, all ignored... was it a wink, wink, from Government to Government? From NDP political back channels?
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  #209  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 12:27 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
I worry that the Staff have no interest in a Centre Plan that operates like HRMxD, providing development certainty (I don't believe City staff were ever happy with HRMxD, as it removed a lot their hard and soft power in development decisions about height, etc).
It depends who you mean by "city staff" - they don't think as a bloc. In my experience the younger/newer staff members that I have met are really supportive of initiatives like HRMBD and generally wish there were more things like that and that they'd go farther. Some of the older staff who have been part of the system for decades might fit your description, but even then, certainly not all. HRM's urban design department is quite progressive and generally the staff wish they could do MORE "progressive, different-from-status-quo" stuff, not less. Most of them are happy to be rid of the "hard and soft power in development decisions about height" because having to constantly second-guess and negotiate things was extremely tedious and from what I understand basically everyone hated having to do that all the time.

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Instead, the Centre Plan has sat dormant for years, while HRM staff, instead, try these one-off "proactive" approaches, which have all ended badly, giving too much power to local NIMBYs.
I'm not sure if you're intentionally framing it this way or if it's just how I'm interpreting it, but the Centre Plan hasn't sat dormant so that staff can try one-off approaches, they are trying one-off approaches because the Centre Plan is not complete. I forget the exact reason why it stalled, but two major factors were that resources were spread thin and that there was some conflict between the direction CP was going and other planning goals (obviously not ALL other planning goals, but enough that it was a problem).

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Another example of the City mucking up proative planning-- Imagine Bloomfield. Literally a decade of hard work by a community group was destroyed by idiotic City staff who awarded the project to an inferior bid just because it was backed by the financial dollars of the (then) NDP Provincial Government. Now that is sitting dormant too, after NDP lost. There were several far superior private sector bids, all ignored... was it a wink, wink, from Government to Government? From NDP political back channels?
The bid was by Housing Nova Scotia, not the NDP government. Not the same thing. In 2014 Lydon Lynch Architects were brought on board to do preliminary designs for the development (which included extensive public consultation). To my knowledge the designs are not complete. Source

And I'm not really familiar enough with what has/had been proposed for Bloomfield to comment on which bid was better, but can you give any concrete examples of how the other bids were objectively "far superior"? Or do you just mean that you preferred them?




As an aside (and directed at everyone, not just you), I would think twice before you call "city staff" things like "idiotic". Most of the ones I know are very smart and progressive and generally wish that policy was more progressive as well, and generally want most of the same things that we want (although "what we want" as a group here seems to be an increasingly fleeting concept). There's a reasonably good chance that some of them follow this forum regularly, and it's pretty discouraging to have your efforts dismissed as idiocy by people who don't actually know what you've been doing.

Last edited by Hali87; Jan 7, 2016 at 12:40 PM.
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  #210  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 2:10 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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The bid was by Housing Nova Scotia, not the NDP government. Not the same thing. In 2014 Lydon Lynch Architects were brought on board to do preliminary designs for the development (which included extensive public consultation). To my knowledge the designs are not complete. Source

And I'm not really familiar enough with what has/had been proposed for Bloomfield to comment on which bid was better, but can you give any concrete examples of how the other bids were objectively "far superior"? Or do you just mean that you preferred them?

Housing Nova Scotia is a creature of govt and it was directed by the NDP politicians to inject itself into something that went well beyond its mandate. One suspects but will likely never prove that Minister Maureen "Big Mo" MacDonald, having had her office in Bloomfield and representing the area, was the moving force behind this at Cabinet. The remarkable thing is that virtually nobody in the Imagine Bloomfield group with the exception of those who drink the NDP orange kool-aid daily wanted this. The rational members wanted a qualified private sector developer to win the bid so that it could be built in a timely fashion with the commercial components having a reasonable chance of success. Now it is going nowehrre, especially with the management turnover at the top of HNS. This is a prime example of what happens when govt has a reach that exceeds its grasp.
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  #211  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 2:45 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Housing Nova Scotia is a creature of govt
true

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and it was directed by the NDP politicians to inject itself into something
source?

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that went well beyond its mandate.
debatable, and I completely disagree.

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One suspects but will likely never prove that Minister Maureen "Big Mo" MacDonald, having had her office in Bloomfield and representing the area, was the moving force behind this at Cabinet.
"One", in this case, being you?

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The remarkable thing is that virtually nobody in the Imagine Bloomfield group with the exception of those who drink the NDP orange kool-aid daily wanted this. The rational members wanted a qualified private sector developer to win the bid so that it could be built in a timely fashion with the commercial components having a reasonable chance of success. Now it is going nowehrre, especially with the management turnover at the top of HNS. This is a prime example of what happens when govt has a reach that exceeds its grasp.
Were the members that you deem "rational" the majority?
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  #212  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 8:37 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Your responses bear the stamp of an orange Kool-Aid addict yourself, so I will not attempt to reason with you. You have reaped what you have sewn.
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  #213  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 9:03 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Your responses bear the stamp of an orange Kool-Aid addict yourself, so I will not attempt to reason with you. You have reaped what you have sewn.
Really? When I read them they seem more to bear the stamp of "not agreeing with Keith"...
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  #214  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 9:23 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Your responses bear the stamp of an orange Kool-Aid addict yourself, so I will not attempt to reason with you. You have reaped what you have sewn.
I was actually hoping you'd attempt to reason with me.

But all you seem to do is assert your opinions and theories as the objective truth, and denounce anyone who disagrees with you as crazy and/or corrupt. Reasoning be damned. I assumed you could back up your claims here (and I was interested in seeing what the sources were) but my impression now is that you actually can't.

But hey, at least you didn't accuse me of cheating my way through grad school


(edit: noting that this forum tends to lean left, there's a good chance you've inadvertently raised my credibility among most others here. so... thanks?)

Last edited by Hali87; Jan 7, 2016 at 9:51 PM.
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  #215  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 9:29 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Really? When I read them they seem more to bear the stamp of "not agreeing with Keith"...
Thanks for the solidarity, comrade!

Workers of the world unite, or whatever.

Last edited by Hali87; Jan 7, 2016 at 9:53 PM. Reason: decided to make it snarky
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  #216  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 9:33 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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So since Keith won't answer my questions, does anyone else have any answers to them?
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  #217  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 10:56 PM
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Jonovision Jonovision is offline
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I was fortunate to be privy to one of the other bids on Bloomfield and I can say beyond a doubt that it was far superior than anything the winning bid will end up building. It was beautiful and makes my heart hurt thinking that it now will never see the light of day.
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  #218  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 11:05 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Out of curiosity, what were the main differences/features?
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  #219  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 11:06 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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I'll admit that I'm only casually familiar with the Bloomfield project and don't really remember the proposals.
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  #220  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2016, 11:52 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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It's my understanding that the Bloomfield thing is widely considered to be a total debacle, though I'm not too familiar with the details. The story as I've heard it many times is that Housing NS won the project for some reason, despite a mediocre proposal, and now the new government seems uninterested in pursuing even that, and has fallen silent on it. Meanwhile the Imagine Bloomfield people can barely get Housing NS to return a phone call.

All the whole, the buildings sit there, empty, deteriorating, potential wasting away, which is maddening.
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