The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Aylmer]

Oh, that's a truck tunnel, but it wouldn't make its way to Gatineau - it would go from the Ottawa side of the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge (Autoroute 5) to the Nicholas/417, also in Ottawa. That's actually one of the critiques of the idea - since it wouldn't cross the provincial boundary, it would put the entire financial burden on Ottawa and Ontario as opposed to sharing it between Ottawa, Gatineau, Quebec, Ontario and the federal government. And for that reason, I deem it unlikely to go through, for better or for worse.

* * *

As for the timing of Phase 2, it is supposed to start in 2018, immediately following the opening of Phase 1 and finish five years later in 2023. So in the space of 5 years, Ottawa will increase its rail RT tenfold from 5km today to just short of 50km. We might also hope for even more transit on both sides of the river with the federal government's new funding commitments. In Gatineau at least, I know that there have been some very interesting discussions since October...!

[Razor]

^ you are correct.The proposal is only for the Ontario side..I confused this proposal with other talk of an actual inner provincial tunnel.That may of been just been from the talking heads on the local television news /paper though.

[Hybrid247]

The link you provided is about a truck tunnel that would connect highway 417 with the Macdonald Cartier bridge in order to remove freight traffic from the lower town area. It isn't a tunnel that cross into Gatineau, nor is it a tunnel intended for LRT. Here's the map from the link:



Building a tunnel for LRT to Gatineau would be a needless waste of money. Renovations and additions to the abandoned Prince of Wales bridge and a conversion of the Alexandra bridge from car traffic to LRT makes much more sense

edit: Aylmer beat me to it

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

The link you provided is about a truck tunnel that would connect highway 417 with the Macdonald Cartier bridge in order to remove freight traffic from the lower town area. It isn't a tunnel that cross into Gatineau, nor is it a tunnel intended for LRT. Here's the map from the link:


Building a tunnel for LRT to Gatineau would be a needless waste of money. Renovations and additions to the abandoned Prince of Wales bridge and a conversion of the Alexandra bridge from car traffic to LRT makes much more sense.

I thought the old railway bridge is not an option anymore. I heard something about it becoming a pedestrian bridge.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Oh, that's a truck tunnel, but it wouldn't make its way to Gatineau - it would go from the Ottawa side of the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge (Autoroute 5) to the Nicholas/417, also in Ottawa. That's actually one of the critiques of the idea - since it wouldn't cross the provincial boundary, it would put the entire financial burden on Ottawa and Ontario as opposed to sharing it between Ottawa, Gatineau, Quebec, Ontario and the federal government. And for that reason, I deem it unlikely to go through, for better or for worse.

* * *

As for the timing of Phase 2, it is supposed to start in 2018, immediately following the opening of Phase 1 and finish five years later in 2023. So in the space of 5 years, Ottawa will increase its rail RT tenfold from 5km today to just short of 50km. We might also hope for even more transit on both sides of the river with the federal government's new funding commitments. In Gatineau at least, I know that there have been some very interesting discussions since October...!

I might be a little too optimistic in thinking this, but I'm thinking construction for phase 2 might have the potential to start before phase 1 is even completed. If the funding for it is secured soon, why not start the construction sooner for an earlier opening? The current pace of phase 1 makes it seem like a large portion of the construction will be completed long before the 2018 opening. Wouldn't it therefore make sense to immediately shift the available construction resources to phase 2?

And I'm curious about the "interesting discussions" you're referring to for Gatineau transit. Does it by any chance have anything to do with converting the Rapibus corridor to LRT?

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I thought the old railway bridge is not an option anymore. I heard something about it becoming a pedestrian bridge.

Although I haven't heard anything regarding that, it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. I'll do a little research and see if I find anything. Regardless of that though, the bridge's location would be perfect for a new LRT bridge to Gatineau.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Although I haven't heard anything regarding that, it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. I'll do a little research and see if I find anything. Regardless of that though, the bridge's location would be perfect for a new LRT bridge to Gatineau.

There was a proposal to convert the bridge for multi-use (pedestrian and cycling) but the money was diverted to another project. In any event I see the POW bridge as more of interest to cyclists than pedestrians. There are not many pedestrian destinations on either shore of the bridge and it's also quite long. If ever this is what they use it for it will be almost all cyclists that use it. Which is still a good thing of course.

As for LRT it opens up some interesting possibilities but not sure I'd call it ideal as it isn't really aligned with any of the major origin-destination patterns between Ottawa and Gatineau. They have a bit of a challenge in order to make that work.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There was a proposal to convert the bridge for multi-use (pedestrian and cycling) but the money was diverted to another project. In any event I see the POW bridge as more of interest to cyclists than pedestrians. There are not many pedestrian destinations on either shore of the bridge and it's also quite long. If ever this is what they use it for it will be almost all cyclists that use it. Which is still a good thing of course.

As for LRT it opens up some interesting possibilities but not sure I'd call it ideal as it isn't really aligned with any of the major origin-destination patterns between Ottawa and Gatineau. They have a bit of a challenge in order to make that work.

That was what I meant. I knew it was something human powered.

It is aligned with the tracks for the Trillium line. On the Gatineau side, it does line up with the Rapidbus route.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There was a proposal to convert the bridge for multi-use (pedestrian and cycling) but the money was diverted to another project. In any event I see the POW bridge as more of interest to cyclists than pedestrians. There are not many pedestrian destinations on either shore of the bridge and it's also quite long. If ever this is what they use it for it will be almost all cyclists that use it. Which is still a good thing of course.

As for LRT it opens up some interesting possibilities but not sure I'd call it ideal as it isn't really aligned with any of the major origin-destination patterns between Ottawa and Gatineau. They have a bit of a challenge in order to make that work.

I came across this recent article which says there's been some talks about possibly converting the POW bridge for STO bus use before its eventually converted to LRT. http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/12/12/prince-of-wales-bridge-floated-as-temporary-busway

The reason why I think its an ideal location is because, as Swimmer mentioned, on both sides of the river its located near rapid transit corridors. I also think its a good option for the western interprovincial link of the "downtown circulator" the NCC and both cities are exploring. http://www.sto.ca/fileadmin/user_upload/...Interprovincial%20Transit%20Strategy.pdf

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

And I'm curious about the "interesting discussions" you're referring to for Gatineau transit. Does it by any chance have anything to do with converting the Rapibus corridor to LRT?

No. Though conversion to a rail-based system (presumably LRT) is in the City's aspirational 2031 goals, it's unlikely that that discussion will happen anytime soon considering its underwhelming uptake and recent completion (2013).
In the medium term (2016-2021), the focus will be on western rapid transit. Before the rocky start of the eastern Rapibus, it was long-assumed that the western branch would also be BRT and would follow the Highway 148, but that idea has been increasingly questioned since the last municipal election and the latest federal election, along with some more subtle (but perhaps even more important) changes to the City's transit company, STO. To many in the Ottawa-Gatineau section, it's no secret that I've been very active in pushing for a rail-based alternative on a more central route through the main street. I may therefore be biased, but I know for sure that, if I was pushing the idea against a stone wall only a few years ago, it's been an increasingly easy sell. It's far too early to say, but I definitely have more to be optimistic about as time goes on.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

The reason why I think its an ideal location is because, as Swimmer mentioned, on both sides of the river its located near rapid transit corridors. I also think its a good option for the western interprovincial link of the "downtown circulator" the NCC and both cities are exploring. http://www.sto.ca/fileadmin/user_upload/...Interprovincial%20Transit%20Strategy.pdf

Connecting the Trillium line to the Rapibus corridor is more of a nice to have that will take advantage of somewhat low-hanging fruit than something that will provide an effective fix for the biggest transportation and transit needs we have crossing the Ottawa River. The demand and pressing problems aren't really there.

And I don't want to be a stick in the mud but the bridge is too far west to be part of any type of downtown circulator. If it happens the western crossing will be in the Chaudière Booth St. corridor.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

No. Though conversion to a rail-based system (presumably LRT) is in the City's aspirational 2031 goals, it's unlikely that that discussion will happen anytime soon considering its underwhelming uptake and recent completion (2013).
In the medium term (2016-2021), the focus will be on western rapid transit. Before the rocky start of the eastern Rapibus, it was long-assumed that the western branch would also be BRT and would follow the Highway 148, but that idea has been increasingly questioned since the last municipal election and the latest federal election, along with some more subtle (but perhaps even more important) changes to the City's transit company, STO. To many in the Ottawa-Gatineau section, it's no secret that I've been very active in pushing for a rail-based alternative on a more central route through the main street. I may therefore be biased, but I know for sure that, if I was pushing the idea against a stone wall only a few years ago, it's been an increasingly easy sell. It's far too early to say, but I definitely have more to be optimistic about as time goes on.

I typically prefer rail-based travel as well, but I think it'd be hard to justify the cost based on the potential ridership for Aylmer, no? I agree that, right now, Chemin d'Aylmer would probably be a better corridor than the 148. Once the area is more built up though, the 148 might actually make more sense because it'll have a better catchment area. It seems Aylmer will be a challenge by the looks of it.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

I came across this recent article which says there's been some talks about possibly converting the POW bridge for STO bus use before its eventually converted to LRT. http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/12/12/prince-of-wales-bridge-floated-as-temporary-busway

The reason why I think its an ideal location is because, as Swimmer mentioned, on both sides of the river its located near rapid transit corridors. I also think its a good option for the western interprovincial link of the "downtown circulator" the NCC and both cities are exploring. http://www.sto.ca/fileadmin/user_upload/...Interprovincial%20Transit%20Strategy.pdf

The fundamental problem with the PoW Bridge is its location: it's unambiguously outside of both downtown cores. It leaves you with two choices:
1) You have several lines with halved frequencies (Gatineau-Hull, Gatineau-Bayview, Aylmer-Hull, Aylmer-Bayview, etc.) and still requiring a transfer at Bayview if you're heading to Ottawa.
2) You have more frequent lines but which often require two transfers in very short succession (Gatineau-Hull, Hull-Bayview, Bayview-Ottawa).

In 1, you have more direct service, but frequencies would probably be unusably low for RT (i.e: more than 15-20 minutes off-peak), meaning that people heading from Ottawa to, say, the Casino area will spend on average 8-10 minutes waiting for a transfer at Bayview for an 8-10 minutes trip. That's way too uncertain and unreliable for the investment required.
In 2, you have more frequency and reliability, but the need for a very, very large portion of people to transfer twice within two stations (on the Hull side of the bridge and again on the Ottawa side of the bridge via a necessarily infrequent single-tracked bridge) also does a disservice to transit users.

That's not to say that the bridge shouldn't be used - it's so stupidly obvious, it drives me mad - but it would do very poorly as the main interprovincial transit link and I think that it's a stretch to claim that it would even match the level of service which is offered by today's buses (and that's saying something).

I'm of the opinion that the only long-term possibilities for an interprovincial transit spine will have to reach both downtown cores directly; either using an existing crossing (Portage Bridge or, more likely, the Alexandra Bridge which includes the original and unused tram RoW into downtown Ottawa) or a new, presumably underground tunnel under the Ottawa River (which I would deem unlikely, considering the cost).

To situate yourselves, here's a map of the downtown crossings. Downtown Hull is situated just to the left of the "Portage Bridge" bubble and Downtown Ottawa is immediately south of Wellington St.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Connecting the Trillium line to the Rapibus corridor is more of a nice to have that will take advantage of somewhat low-hanging fruit than something that will provide an effective fix for the biggest transportation and transit needs we have crossing the Ottawa River. The demand and pressing problems aren't really there.

And I don't want to be a stick in the mud but the bridge is too far west to be part of any type of downtown circulator. If it happens the western crossing will be in the Chaudière Booth St. corridor.

Ya it might be a case of simply taking advantage of what's already there, though I think it could provide many benefits. You may have already seen this on the Ottawa-Gatineau forum. I created a simple map that I think would provide good interprovincial and downtown transit for the NCR and more.


This could potentially provide direct transit to the center of the city for Trillium line users, including airport users, assuming the link gets built. That wouldn't be possible if the Chaudiere corridor is used. Not to mention a Chaudiere LRT crossing would be likely be more expensive and complicated to implement. With the Alexandra LRT crossing to Rideau, I think the POW brudge crossing make sense.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

The fundamental problem with the PoW Bridge is its location: it's unambiguously outside of both downtown cores. It leaves you with two choices:
1) You have several lines with halved frequencies (Gatineau-Hull, Gatineau-Bayview, Aylmer-Hull, Aylmer-Bayview, etc.) and still requiring a transfer at Bayview if you're heading to Ottawa.
2) You have more frequent lines but which often require two transfers in very short succession (Gatineau-Hull, Hull-Bayview, Bayview-Ottawa).

In 1, you have more direct service, but frequencies would probably be unusably low for RT (i.e: more than 15-20 minutes off-peak), meaning that people heading from Ottawa to, say, the Casino area will spend on average 8-10 minutes waiting for a transfer at Bayview for an 8-10 minutes trip. That's way too uncertain and unreliable for the investment required.
In 2, you have more frequency and reliability, but the need for a very, very large portion of people to transfer twice within two stations (on the Hull side of the bridge and again on the Ottawa side of the bridge via a necessarily infrequent single-tracked bridge) also does a disservice to transit users.

That's not to say that the bridge shouldn't be used - it's so stupidly obvious, it drives me mad - but it would do very poorly as the main interprovincial transit link and I think that it's a stretch to claim that it would even match the level of service which is offered by today's buses (and that's saying something).

I'm of the opinion that the only long-term possibilities for an interprovincial transit spine will have to reach both downtown cores directly; either using an existing crossing (Portage Bridge or, more likely, the Alexandra Bridge which includes the original and unused tram RoW into downtown Ottawa) or a new, presumably underground tunnel under the Ottawa River (which I would deem unlikely, considering the cost).

To situate yourselves, here's a map of the downtown crossings. Downtown Hull is situated just to the left of the "Portage Bridge" bubble and Downtown Ottawa is immediately south of Wellington St.

Yes, exactly. Using the POW bridge as the sole interprovincial transit corridor would be foolish and inefficient. Though if both the POW and Alexandra bridges are used, I think the benefits are too great to ignore.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Yes, exactly. Using the POW bridge as the sole interprovincial transit corridor would be foolish and inefficient. Though if both the POW and Alexandra bridges are used, I think the benefits are too great to ignore.

Even if just the POW bridge was used, it is a low hanging piece of fruit that could pay off.

Yes, there would be at least one connection downtown. But then, the same could be said about those riding the Bloor Line in Toronto or the Blue lien in Montreal.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Even if just the POW bridge was used, it is a low hanging piece of fruit that could pay off.

Yes, there would be at least one connection downtown. But then, the same could be said about those riding the Bloor Line in Toronto or the Blue lien in Montreal.

In my opinion, I think the benefits would be minimal because most users would have to transfer twice, whereas Blue line users in Montreal and Bloor line users in Toronto only have to transfer once. STO users would have to transfer to the Trillium line on Gatineau side and then to the Confederation line in Ottawa. Only Trillium line users would have to transfer once, which currently represents a small share of transit users.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Once the area is more built up though, the 148 might actually make more sense because it'll have a better catchment area. It seems Aylmer will be a challenge by the looks of it.

This is a widely-held idea, but it doesn't stand up to closer scrutiny. Though new residential developments do extend northwards past the 148, there is actually very little buildable land within the normal catchment area of a transit line (400-800m), being comprised almost entirely of parkland, parking, or thin strips of land left over from inward-looking development projects. There's very little potential greenfield and perhaps even less potential for redevelopment considering the basic street structure of the surrounding urban fabric. Beyond the implications a lengthy detour for current transit users, these new neighbourhoods would be poorly served by a highway-bound transit spine, arguably more than they are today.

As for ridership, 2011 bus boardings/mile on Chemin d'Aylmer/Taché already outranked all but the top 15 LRT systems on the continent, including Portland (streetcar and LRT), Seattle, Denver, Pittsburgh, Baltimore. If you include Ottawa-to-Hull transit ridership, it ranks solidly in the top 10, above all US systems except Boston. Of course, Canadian cities always tend to have higher transit ridership than their American counterparts, but it's just to illustrate the point that the ridership is justifiable and perhaps even enviable by continental standards.

[eemy]

While the PoW bridge is low hanging fruit, it doesn't really provide a lot of value from a network perspective. I prefer something going over Chaudiere Island and through Lebreton Flats and then into downtown, probably on Albert/Slater, but unfortunately I don't think that a RT line could be accommodated over the Chaudiere Bridge. It might be possible to squeeze in LRT at the expense of two car lanes, but it would be a tight fit.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

This is a widely-held idea, but it doesn't stand up to closer scrutiny. Though new residential developments do extend northwards past the 148, there is actually very little buildable land within the normal catchment area of a transit line (400-800m), being comprised almost entirely of parkland, parking, or thin strips of land left over from inward-looking development projects. There's very little potential greenfield and perhaps even less potential for redevelopment considering the basic street structure of the surrounding urban fabric. Beyond the implications a lengthy detour for current transit users, these new neighbourhoods would be poorly served by a highway-bound transit spine, arguably more than they are today.

As for ridership, 2011 bus boardings/mile on Chemin d'Aylmer/Taché already outranked all but the top 15 LRT systems on the continent, including Portland (streetcar and LRT), Seattle, Denver, Pittsburgh, Baltimore. If you include Ottawa-to-Hull transit ridership, it ranks solidly in the top 10, above all US systems except Boston. Of course, Canadian cities always tend to have higher transit ridership than their American counterparts, but it's just to illustrate the point that the ridership is justifiable and perhaps even enviable by continental standards.

That's surprising. I had no clue Aylmer's ridership was that strong, especially considering that there's a large amount of undeveloped land along that corridor (around those golf courses). My judgement is solely based on the current and potential future urban developments along the 148 and chemin d'aylmer corridors, and both seem to have limited opportunities. That's why I feel it's going to be challenging to choose the optimal corridor and subsequently maximize usage along those undeveloped segments of the line. But then again, it's not a major problem in Ottawa where the Transitway crosses the greenbelt so there's no reason why it can't be successful in Aylmer.