Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

That`s certainly an interesting concept. However, back in the day, No. 5 Road was basically a farming area with also a large Drive-In Movie Theatre, if I recall my history.

Today, south of Bridgeport Road is basically residential while north of Bridgeport Road is industrial. One would need to concurrently punch a freeway standard connector to Hwy 99 through that long stretch and I doubt that it would be feasible.

I would think that a bridge connecting Cambie could be feasible as a concept down the road - with a much shorter route (via viaduct) to connect with Hwy 99.

As an aside, over the years, have had extreme difficulty locating pics of the old Fraser Street Bridge that ya mentioned. In fact there were apparently two - a shorter, steel, swing-span connecting Mitchell Island with Van City and a second larger, wooden trestle structure connecting Mitchell Island with Richmond.

Here`s a pic of the southern, wooden structure facing north landing on Mitchell Island (circa mid-1950`s - posted on SSP about 5 years ago):



And here`s a pic from the 1940`s looking north:



And a final pic from 1962 facing NW:



Source: Garry Cullen - FB

Wow, interesting! Thanks for the pics.

To be honest with you, after looking at Google Maps, it looks like it's possible to create the No.5 Rd bridge in a way as to completely prevent bridge bottlenecks in the first place. If the bridge is 4 lanes in width, with proper separated bike lanes, has ZERO interchanges, and treated as merely an extension south from Fraser and north from No.5, I think it will be an excellent alternate route to escape the traffic nightmare from KSB, especially if the bridge bans truck traffic.

You're right regarding the freeway connection on this corridor. IMO, it's pretty much an overkill. Plus, extensive residential development on that corridor for the past 25-30 years have precluded this possibility.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Who are these mythical radical left straw men you are creating? The NDP spent a ton of money building a giant highway on the island in the 90s. They did the same short-sighted vote buying that the BC Liberals are doing.

Haha. Common knowledge, across all political circles across Canada that Grand Central Station/Ground Zero for the fringe loony-left enviro movement is none other than Van City proper itself.

As for the Island Highway, not quite correct:

1. Back in the late 1980`s, the then Socred gov`t had design plans in place to construct the new Island Highway from Victoria to Campbell River with a combined freeway standard/expressway standard deign.

The Socreds also were intent on upgrading Hwy 17 (Pat Bay Hwy) to an expressway standard design. In fact, construction had already been well underway on the Island Highway, north of Parksville, by the time the BC NDP was elected gov`t back in October, 1991;

2. So what happened when the BC NDP came in?

A. They stopped construction of the Inland Island Highway. Only re-commenced construction about 1 - 2 years later;

B. The BC NDP then incorporated their typical social engineering model in terms of labour contract requirements, etc., which resulted in exploding construction costs;

C. The BC NDP downgraded the portion south of Nanaimo toward the Malahat from expressway standard to arterial standard as a result of these cost-overruns;

D. Due to the screaming from the loony-left enviro crowd, the BC NDP abandoned plans to upgrade through the Malahat portion. Even today the Malahat is a mess - numerous major accidents with major closures are routine;

E. Due to the screaming from the loony-left enviro crowd, the BC NDP abandoned an interchange at MacKenzie and Hwy 1 in the Victoria area; Had been a major traffic irritant for the Western Communities. Only now, after about 20 years, the current BC gov`t and feds have committed $85 million for an interchange to be finally built there. Loony-left enviros be damned.

F. Again, due to the screams coming from the loony-left enviro crowd, the BC NDP nixed upgrading Hwy 17 to expressway standard;

Good friggin` grief. What an effin` mess the Island Project was along with the then incumbent gov`t.

BTW, loony-left enviros are a different animal when compared to environmentally-conscious folk - which most people are. And loony-left enviros are not only part of the BC NDP base but also infest the party itself.

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

If successive provincial governments made constant but incremental road infrastructure upgrades throughout the past 50 years, we wouldn't need to pay dearly for single massive road projects.

I think this is a fantastic statement. What is needed is a long-term nonpartisan plan set in place for setting priorities and also for annual funding amounts. Perhaps with revisiting the plan every 10 years regardless of who is in power.

One can only imagine if provincial parties and municipalities worked together to create a long-term plan (not vision) and stuck to that plan. One can only imagine if $500,000 in today's dollars was invested annually on four-laning the TCH from Kamloops to the Alberta border post Coquihalla Hwy construction. Or $500,000 in today's dollars was invested annually on lower mainland roads. - have a big expensive project that needs to get built (akin to Kicking Horse Canyon, PMB replacement, SFPR? well cut back a few years to make it happen. Average out the annual spending to some figure, revisit plan and funding every 10 years.

[libtard]

There has literally not been a time since 1986 that a new skytrain line hasn't been under construction. And the frequency of buses has quadrupled since then. What more do transit folks want

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I think a potential bridge connecting No.5 Rd to Fraser would be a better idea than the one on No.8 Rd. That's going to take a great idea of traffic away from OSB and KSB. Also, there's no ALR issue to contend with, since the bridge goes over mostly industrial land. Heck, before the KSB was built, the No.5 Rd bridge was THE bridge connecting Richmond to East Van.

However, if the No.5 Rd bridge becomes a reality, I wonder how it's going to navigate around all the warehouses and other buildings in Mitchell Island.

Not sure if you use the knight street bridge on a daily basis. But a lot of vehicles heading northbound take the marine drive exit and go east bound. Which tells me that a crossing at No 8 / Boundary is needed far more than a crossing at No 5 / Fraser. Also No 5 / Fraser is a bit too close to the knight street bridge. It would be better to just build a bigger knight street bridge instead.

As for the new GMT crossing I do support it. But I also wonder what impact in terms of increased traffic it will cause on the Oak / Knight bridge crossing.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by SOSS

I think this is a fantastic statement. What is needed is a long-term nonpartisan plan set in place for setting priorities and also for annual funding amounts. Perhaps with revisiting the plan every 10 years regardless of who is in power.

One can only imagine if provincial parties and municipalities worked together to create a long-term plan (not vision) and stuck to that plan. One can only imagine if $500,000 in today's dollars was invested annually on four-laning the TCH from Kamloops to the Alberta border post Coquihalla Hwy construction. Or $500,000 in today's dollars was invested annually on lower mainland roads. - have a big expensive project that needs to get built (akin to Kicking Horse Canyon, PMB replacement, SFPR? well cut back a few years to make it happen. Average out the annual spending to some figure, revisit plan and funding every 10 years.

Absolutely! In fact I would actually largely blame the massive costs for both Gateway Project and the upcoming GMT replacement Project on previous provincial governments' (esp on BC NDP, and various far-left enviro nutjobs occupying municipal governments) lack of commitment to consistent, incremental road infrastructure improvements for the past 40 years.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Not sure if you use the knight street bridge on a daily basis. But a lot of vehicles heading northbound take the marine drive exit and go east bound. Which tells me that a crossing at No 8 / Boundary is needed far more than a crossing at No 5 / Fraser. Also No 5 / Fraser is a bit too close to the knight street bridge. It would be better to just build a bigger knight street bridge instead.

As for the new GMT crossing I do support it. But I also wonder what impact in terms of increased traffic it will cause on the Oak / Knight bridge crossing.

Actually, you're right. I go on KSB probably once or twice a week. In fact, I think there's more traffic exiting KSB to SE Marine eastbound than the actual traffic continuing onto Knight St NB. I think the best solution is to widen KSB (doable?) to 4 lanes NB and 3 lanes SB, so that there can be two lanes exiting to SE Marine EB. Ideally, the interchange at KSB and SE Marine should be rebuilt in a way that can eliminate traffic lights and yield spots in that location (namely the left turn from SE Marine WB to KSB and yield spot for traffic entering EB SE Marine from KSB).

The No.8 Rd Bridge would be ideal but I highly doubt it can go forward politically because Richmond City Council passed a resolution objecting to the new bridge connecting the 91 with the 17. Very unfortunate. However, in order to preserve the ALR, can't they build it via No.8 Rd on pilings and viaducts throughout?

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Because there are more cars heading in the counterflow lane direction than in the opposite (minority) direction. If you didn't have the counterflow lane then presumably the backup would be worse in the direction most people are going.

I know that, but the question was why not change the counter-flow direction few times during rush hour, like they do on Lions Gate Bridge? Currently it feels like rush hour direction is getting too much priority and is smooth sailing, whereas the other direction is almost standing still.

Also, why have they never implemented counter-flow on Alex Fraser Bridge? The bridge has excessive capacity and could easily serve in 4+2 lane configuration during rush hour. Has this even been considered?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I know that, but the question was why not change the counter-flow direction few times during rush hour, like they do on Lions Gate Bridge? Currently it feels like rush hour direction is getting too much priority and is smooth sailing, whereas the other direction is almost standing still.

Also, why have they never implemented counter-flow on Alex Fraser Bridge? The bridge has excessive capacity and could easily serve in 4+2 lane configuration during rush hour. Has this even been considered?

The AFB area has too much traffic separation (which is good, because it's safer) so counterflow would require a number of serious construction changes.

As for the GMT, I don't know the answer there. 1 lane is just too much of a bottleneck. But a solution is in the works, so just 7 short years to wait...

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I know that, but the question was why not change the counter-flow direction ..............................
Also, why have they never implemented counter-flow on Alex Fraser Bridge? The bridge has excessive capacity and could easily serve in 4+2 lane configuration during rush hour. Has this even been considered?

They do that on the Bosphorus Bridge in Istanbul, and it seems to work well.
However, as Warren implied, perhaps it's wider than the AFB (though it seemed about the same to me)

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I know that, but the question was why not change the counter-flow direction few times during rush hour, like they do on Lions Gate Bridge? Currently it feels like rush hour direction is getting too much priority and is smooth sailing, whereas the other direction is almost standing still.

Given the amount of time it takes to safely open and close the counterflow lane and the time it takes backlogs like that to clear I'm kind of skeptical that it would be a net improvement.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Given the amount of time it takes to safely open and close the counterflow lane and the time it takes backlogs like that to clear I'm kind of skeptical that it would be a net improvement.

It is actually a valid point that with the tunnel the traffic cannot be made to merge back to normal lanes like on Lions Gate Bridge, so switching the direction is not as smooth to implement. Maybe it is not worth it due to that.

In regards to Alex Fraser Bridge, sure, they would need to do some re-building to accommodate counter-flow, but it doesn't seem like that difficult job and I don't see how it could not be implemented in same fashion as on GMT. It would work better northbound, where the highway splits and provides extra lanes, whereas southwards the help from fourth lane would be less.

[Rico]

To me it seems the need for 10 lanes for the GMT is bizzare, especially if it is tolled which will keep traffic volumes down. What I wonder is if a 7 lane configuration was ever considered with a single permanently separated Bus only lane in the center that acts like the counter flow. Rush hour buses get their own lane, counter flow buses (that would not be in congestion with 3 lanes) use the regular lanes. I think people underestimate how much tolling this bridge will reduce demand. Have volumes going over the new Port Mann caught up to the pre-toll levels on the old Port Mann yet?

[WarrenC12]

PMB Volumes are a bit of a joke. 2015-16 should provide the high end of any forecasts, as we have good economic growth and really cheap gas.

[Klazu]

What's the point of touting an old, non-official and un-sourced graph in here? Don't we already know that the volumes have remained at least stable in 2014 and 2015, if not started climbing again?

Everyone also knows that the originally estimated volumes would happen the next day if the toll was removed or even lowered. People are just so cheap with their time, so they spend an hour in Pattullo queues. Idiotic, if you ask me.

Lastly, the bridge is already there and it is not going anywhere, so there is no point in keep crying about it.

[WarrenC12]

Here's the source:

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/2014/02/14/Port-Mann-Delusions/

I was responding to the topic brought up.

I think a very recent 10-lane toll bridge has incredible relevance when the province is committed to building exactly the same type of infrastructure again for this bridge.

Here's the official source of volumes, not in graphical form:

http://www.pmh1project.com/about-the-project/about-ti-corp/Pages/Traffic.aspx

[Klazu]

Thanks. Strange that they don't put their name on their graphs.

Nonetheless, it would be good to have real 2014 and 2015 figures, as that one is strongly suggesting a declining trend, which I doubt is the case. The growth is just happening much slower than they anticipated due to people being cheap.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Klazu

...it would be good to have real 2014 and 2015 figures, as that one is strongly suggesting a declining trend, which I doubt is the case. The growth is just happening much slower than they anticipated due to people being cheap.

Actually, traffic was declining for five years before the tolls were implemented (and declines started before the financial crisis), and yet the 2011 forecast still called for a huge increase in traffic volumes which would result in higher traffic levels than the original, discredited 2006 and 2007 forecasts. This is known as "wearing blinkers".

It's not just BC that's making this mistake - it's common among highway engineers all over the Western Hemisphere. Of course it's in the best interests of highway engineers for traffic volumes to rise, but at some point we have to come to the realization that "fool me twice, shame on us".

This is exactly why people are questioning the need for 10 lanes. Unfortunately the GMT replacement will already be built by the time we know for sure whether this is just a blip or if the habits of the younger generation are really creating a lasting turning point with regard to car usage.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Here's the source:

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/2014/02/14/Port-Mann-Delusions/

Haha. Ya do realize that the Tyee is not a credible source?! For anything. It`s akin to Sun media except for being on the opposite end of the political spectrum.

In any event, here are the latest PMB figures available:

Port Mann Bridge traffic sees 5% increase

AUGUST 26, 2015

Traffic figures on the new 10-lane Port Mann Bridge have experienced consecutive monthly increases, according to new data provided by the Transportation Investment Corporation.

During the first seven months of 2015, the tolled crossing recorded 20.73 million trips, an uptick of five per cent over the same period experienced last year.

The weekday average in July 2015 was 3.24 million, which is 60,000 more vehicles than what was recorded in July 2014. On a daily average basis, 111,800 vehicles were recorded on each weekday in July compared to 107,700 vehicles during the same month in 2014.

“We’ve seen seven or eight consecutive months of year-over-year growth. On average, traffic volumes have been six per cent higher every month this year than the year before.”

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/08/port-mann-bridge-traffic-increase/

PS. The other link that ya posted shows latest to November, 2015 and, since September, 2015 actually shows greater growth over two years even since July.

[moosejaw]

In response to the counter flow lanes on the AFB, a similar system that's in place in Honolulu and San Juan where they use a zipper dual jersey barrier with a modified bus that moves the median to suit traffic flow patterns
. Pretty neat if you ask me