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  #1321  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2015, 1:04 AM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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^ My guess is the jobs would still be unionized... VIVA drivers are in the same ATU local as the TTC or GO Transit, depending on the contractor. Bombardier and CP (which operate the GO Trains) employees are under Teamsters.
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  #1322  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2015, 1:21 AM
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^ My guess is the jobs would still be unionized... VIVA drivers are in the same ATU local as the TTC or GO Transit, depending on the contractor. Bombardier and CP (which operate the GO Trains) employees are under Teamsters.
Still, I don't think ATU 279 would take well to the idea of the city's main rapid transit system being staffed by contract from a private company, even if whomever RTG selected happened to be unionized.
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  #1323  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2015, 2:43 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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That extra $8B is only an extra $8B if you assume traditional projects never have cost overruns. Essentially, it's the extra cost paid to P3 consortia in exchange for the consortia assuming financial responsibility for overruns.

It's not a case of simply $8B wasted as the provincial NDP would have us believe.
I believe the $8B is assuming the average cost overrun is less than the premium the government pays to get a fixed price. It's the same reason why the government self insures its vehicles (the average cost of paying for repairs is less than the cost of insurance).

This type of financing arrangement makes sense for a unique project (say building a velodrome) where it is difficult to price risk and it makes sense when multiple disparate projects are related in some way (Union Station renovations should have used this financing model). It does not make sense when similar projects are being undertaken repeatedly (hospitals, court houses, office buildings) where it isn't cost-effective to outsource risk (hence the eight billion).

To me money overspent is money wasted, but I guess that is a matter of opinion.
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  #1324  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2015, 12:44 PM
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Watson 'disappointed' O-Train upgrade failed to reach frequency target

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: December 21, 2015 | Last Updated: December 21, 2015 4:53 PM EST


Mayor Jim Watson says he’s “disappointed” the $60-million O-Train expansion has failed to live up to the promise of a train every eight minutes.

When council approved the project in 2011, one of its main selling features was slashing the wait time between trains from 15 minutes to eight minutes. But OC Transpo officials now say the original design frequency of eight-to-10 minutes was “an ambitious goal,” and admit the current frequency is closer to 11 -to-11.5 minutes.

“When we were told about the plan, it was going to be faster and more frequent service and we haven’t lived up to that, and obviously I’m disappointed,” Watson said. “I think this is a good lesson for us to make sure we continue to push our staff for the details to make sure what they’re promising us and what they’re delivering are the same thing.”

The news about lower-than-expected frequency is another black eye for the O-Train expansion, which was months overdue when it finally left the station in March of this year.

On the day of the opening, a mechanical failure caused an hour-long delay on the rail line, just as the city tried launch the expanded service with some fanfare, having invited media to a 9:30 a.m. briefing at Carleton University. Drivers didn’t even get the trains out of the yard the following day before more troubles set in, as an “electronic problem” at one of the switching stations knocked out service and left officials red-faced for a second day in a row.

Despite those initial hiccups, OC Transpo says the service has been running at 98 per cent of all planned trips, albeit less frequently than initially desired.

The transit operator blames several factors, such as timing delays with the signal system, reduced travelling speeds and longer-than-expected “dwell times” at stations as passengers get on and off the train.

But it’s far from a complete failure, says transit operations manager Troy Charter.

The $60 million expanded ridership capacity from four trains an hour to five or six, improved station platforms, and paid for six new trains that use newer technology and belch out fewer emissions. “The train is coming more often, it just hasn’t met the target that was established in the business case,” Charter said.

Average weekday ridership before the expansion was in the 13,000-to-14,000 range, but in September, the numbers were higher, peaking at more than 17,000 riders on Sept. 9.

OC Transpo has tried to improve frequency by making minor adjustments to the track alignment, optimizing the timing of signal at the crossing where the Trillium line and Via Rail tracks intersect, and warning passengers about delays caused by holding or blocking doorways.

“We’re going to continue to work on this and continue to make incremental improvements,” Charter said, adding OC Transpo may also replace spring switches and make track alignment changes at Carleton station, but will wait until next summer to minimize the effect of a possible service adjustment on customers.

Before the expansion, it took an average of 13 minutes for riders to travel end-to-end between Greenboro and Bayview stations, and most customers waited an average of 7.5 minutes for the train. While that wait time has been trimmed by about 90 seconds, the average end-to-end trip is now two minutes longer.

“It’s a more comfortable service with the new trains, but it’s not as fast as it should be,” the mayor said.

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...upgrade-failed-to-reach-frequency-target
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  #1325  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2015, 1:55 PM
Mr.Flintstone Mr.Flintstone is offline
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Mr. Watson Isn't serious. You approved the cheaper and worst plan.
Like many have said in this thread.

Just double track it.
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  #1326  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2015, 6:30 PM
DarkArconio DarkArconio is offline
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Mr. Watson Isn't serious. You approved the cheaper and worst plan.
Like many have said in this thread.

Just double track it.
Great plan! You have a few hundred million in your couch cushions?
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  #1327  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2015, 7:22 PM
Andrew_G Andrew_G is offline
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Great plan! You have a few hundred million in your couch cushions?
Not having the funds necessary to double track does not excuse the poor results of this project. I would have personally preferred to save the $60 million we essentially wasted on the project and reserve it for later, when we can do it properly.
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  #1328  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2015, 7:33 PM
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Not having the funds necessary to double track does not excuse the poor results of this project. I would have personally preferred to save the $60 million we essentially wasted on the project and reserve it for later, when we can do it properly.
Exactly. We're essentially paying 60 million + whatever the cost of the next fix.
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  #1329  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2015, 12:20 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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“We’re going to continue to work on this and continue to make incremental improvements,” Charter said, adding OC Transpo may also replace spring switches and make track alignment changes at Carleton station, but will wait until next summer to minimize the effect of a possible service adjustment on customers.
This is all code for another shutdown this summer. Bah, this has to stop. Every minor change means a shutdown. And we are facing another expansion in another couple of years and more shutdowns. Stop it! Do it right, already.

From what we have seen, putting more trains and more passing tracks and more stations just is going to make this mess worse.

If someone will run for mayor with a plausible plan to double track, electrify and connect the Trillium Line at Bayview, I will vote for him or her. Even if we have to delay extension further south for a few more years.

This nonsense of annual or biennial shutdowns for minor fixes that accomplish very little needs to come to an end.
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  #1330  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2015, 2:14 AM
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Exactly. We're essentially paying 60 million + whatever the cost of the next fix.
Plus we lost the marginal increase in ridership the would occur if it had been done right. At a minium each siding should be at least 1.5 km long so that trains don't have to slow down as much. What is really required is to make all new construction double track and produce a detail plan sequencing all phases of construction required to double track the existing line with minimizing shut downs. Secondly hire some railway engineers who know how to cope with traffic and construction. The staff that Ottawa has planning and managing the previous expansion clearly did not know what they were doing.
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  #1331  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2015, 1:50 PM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
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Great plan! You have a few hundred million in your couch cushions?
Borrow it, it's an investment, it's a way to make money.
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  #1332  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2015, 2:36 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Borrow it, it's an investment, it's a way to make money.
How does it "make money"?
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  #1333  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2015, 3:02 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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How does it "make money"?
If it becomes the trunk line for the south end of the city, it could turn a profit. As it stands, there is no real hope of that happening. So we spend and spend and spend to patch up a bad rail line.
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  #1334  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2015, 3:55 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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If it becomes the trunk line for the south end of the city, it could turn a profit. As it stands, there is no real hope of that happening. So we spend and spend and spend to patch up a bad rail line.
Very few transit services anywhere break even, so it would be a little surprising if the an expanded Trillium line could not only break even but cover capital costs. But if is true, hopefully the city will put management/expansion of the line out to tender.
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  #1335  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2015, 4:29 AM
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Very few transit services anywhere break even, so it would be a little surprising if the an expanded Trillium line could not only break even but cover capital costs. But if is true, hopefully the city will put management/expansion of the line out to tender.
It could "break even" in the sense that an expanded Trillium line would probably allow reductions in bus volumes to the south end meaning reduced operating costs + better service meaning higher ridership over time.
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  #1336  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2015, 6:27 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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It could "break even" in the sense that an expanded Trillium line would probably allow reductions in bus volumes to the south end meaning reduced operating costs + better service meaning higher ridership over time.
The Trillium Line will only break even if it provides a service that the public wants, and that is reliable, frequent and direct to downtown service. The current model will never accomplish this. It is already hampered by the fact that it does not satisfy many travel desire lines from the south.
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  #1337  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2015, 8:57 PM
Andrew_G Andrew_G is offline
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Trillium Line is out of service once again due to signalling issues which they claim are caused by the weather. The system was also down a couple of days ago due to a track switch problem.
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  #1338  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2015, 4:14 AM
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That weather is a problem is suspect. Trains are very weather resilient, it's quite rare for any weather event to disrupt a train. VIA ran without problems today and yesterday.
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  #1339  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 3:27 PM
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The trains are slowing down at the passing tracks which are located at the proposed Gladstone and Walkley stations. Why not just have them stop fully and unload/pickup passengers. That would help remedy some of the issues with the lack of double-tracking since they'd have to stop anyways. How much would it cost to add platforms there. Heck, we might was well just get together, go to Home Depot, buy some wood and build it ourselves! Adding 2 platforms shouldn't cost near 1 Million dollars, just do it.

So do you guys have plans for the weekend? Want to build those LRT stations?
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  #1340  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 4:09 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by FFX-ME View Post
The trains are slowing down at the passing tracks which are located at the proposed Gladstone and Walkley stations. Why not just have them stop fully and unload/pickup passengers. That would help remedy some of the issues with the lack of double-tracking since they'd have to stop anyways. How much would it cost to add platforms there. Heck, we might was well just get together, go to Home Depot, buy some wood and build it ourselves! Adding 2 platforms shouldn't cost near 1 Million dollars, just do it.

So do you guys have plans for the weekend? Want to build those LRT stations?
Your comment is very funny. They have been doing all sorts of work in the last year or two around Walkley Station to build a hotel and condo tower. They could have easily reworked that into a station platform. The work on walkways etc went right up to the Trillium Line fence, just metres from the track.

But when I asked the city why they don't spend a few hundred thousand to do this now with the developers help instead of in 2023+, well you know, it didn't even deserve a response.

The city has no flexibility in its plans.

It was so funny that I am a Route 8 bus and I cross over the Trillium Line (that I wanted to use) and there is no way to connect to it anywhere on the route without a long walk or some other sort of complicated transfers. Forget it.
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