PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by Larry King

When does Whole Foods vacate? Probably late 16/early 17?

Sounds to me like the site will more or less stay as is.

Early 16.

Gosh that would suck.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by GarCastle

Apparently I had the "rental" option turned on, oops! It had numerous $1k dots within a block of that property. Having seen dozens of roof-fallen-in row houses along those tracks when I commuted in from Phoenixville, I believed the $1k without even looking at the Zillow.com filter settings LOL.

Can someone take that acreage of the rail dream project and even round down on the decking cost for such a load of buildings? Then we'll have a good idea of how likely it ever is. My bet is never, it's just too cost inhibitive.

It would be a great location due to the trail station. But how would you even do the foundation work? Amtrak and Septa aren't exactly going to shut down lines for the work to happen. (Hudson Yards is a complicated build with much of the load work at the edges I believe).

IF someone were to BUY Septa a new rail yard elsewhere, then getting at least a chunk of the Septa plot of land might be feasible (assuming it's even their land to sell) and then no decking would be needed.

Alternatively, if most of the buildings were along the river closer to Spring Garden and in the parts not over the yards with just walkways (or minimal drives) to the rest, then it would be far easier to dodge putting in crazy supports right where all the tracks are. /shrug

Cheers,
G.

It's enormously complex.

Interestingly, Hudson Yards Phase II will be easier to engineer than Phase I. That's because the tracks there are dead straight, which means that column grid placements will be much, much easier than they were with Phase I. And even in Phase I, once you know how to read the site you start to realize just how much it was determined by where they had to put the support columns. Most of the open (not occupied by active railroad track) space was concentrated on the south and east sides of the site; it's not a coincidence that the plaza lies over the widest part of the yard throat. Only 35 Hudson Yards lies over a section of straight yard tracks.

When we look at what's being proposed for the 30th Street Station area, the constraints are very similar. Powelton's track layout precludes column placement, which makes it essentially impossible to develop over unless the storage space was either partially or wholly replaced elsewhere. By contrast, the primary development areas lie either over the open MOW space between Powelton and the High Line, the Penn Coach Yards (straight enough to allow for good column placement in a potentially high-office-demand area), and the upper end of the platforms themselves. Here, the Schuylkill Bluffs are built over the station's north throat and the Expressway, which allows for a cantilever truss structural design over both of those obstacles before landing on columns at the opposite edges. Perfect for a park ... much less so for buildings.

[Kidphilly]

Just out of curiosity why can't the powelton yards be moved to North Philly. Would that be less expensive overall?

[GarCastle]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

Just out of curiosity why can't the powelton yards be moved to North Philly. Would that be less expensive overall?

The tricky part would be that many of the Septa trains going north out of the city start at those yards at 30th street station. Actually they "nerfed" quite a few trains and made even more of them start at 30th last week. Penn is doing a survey with many employees about the train stop/time changes since apparently many hospital staff were late to work due to the changes.

But yeah I would think Septa could re-arrange things if they got enough of a paycheck to make it worthwhile. That yard could be prime space along the river, etc. That in turn may raise other nearby property values which would be a good thing. It's a good amount of space though, so I'm not sure how easily Septa could acquire other plots that big in the city, even at Wayne Junction/etc. Unless they could play an eminent domain card (which would suck for those affected by it).

Cheers,
G.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by GarCastle

The tricky part would be that many of the Septa trains going north out of the city start at those yards at 30th street station. Actually they "nerfed" quite a few trains and made even more of them start at 30th last week. Penn is doing a survey with many employees about the train stop/time changes since apparently many hospital staff were late to work due to the changes.

But yeah I would think Septa could re-arrange things if they got enough of a paycheck to make it worthwhile. That yard could be prime space along the river, etc. That in turn may raise other nearby property values which would be a good thing. It's a good amount of space though, so I'm not sure how easily Septa could acquire other plots that big in the city, even at Wayne Junction/etc. Unless they could play an eminent domain card (which would suck for those affected by it).

Cheers,
G.

Recall that trains that terminate at Market East or Temple University deadhead up to Roberts Yard up by Wayne Junction. There's no real reason why 30th St.'s terminal yard has to be Powelton, if a suitable replacement can be found. The key here, though, has to be that the solution has to provide SEPTA with equal or greater storage capacity than the current Powelton Yard.

Personally, I would suggest allowing SEPTA to use the Main Line's north side for storage between Zoo and 52nd St. While this doesn't provide a 1-to-1 replacement of Powelton, the extra storage space so gained would allow SEPTA to take a few of Powelton's tracks out of service, and so create column space within the older yard.

[Philly Fan]

Philly from above.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Summersm, any comment on 20th & Callowhill? Anything? Please offer something encouraging.

I'm dying thinking of a big box and surface lot polluting that site for the next 20 years.

Where are you, anyway, Summers? You are making me feel like a stalker.

Hahaha, sorry! I was away for the weekend. I was told the owner wanted to redevelop the parcel, but I haven't heard any definitive plans. If they do indeed sign Target to a long term contract on the current site though, we can pretty much kiss redevelopment goodbye for at least 15 years.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

Philly from above.

Great pic!

[summersm343]

Philadelphia Skyline by Tamara Sredojevic, on Flickr

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

FWIW here is a synopsis of the feedback I provided on their site for feedback

1 - ensure that 31st street underground held for potential future HR expansion to link with the Pennsy cut and the 23rd street viaduct - a new loop routs of sorts that will meet with the BSL at the NY.

2 - Kill the Arch street and Paines park pedestrian bridges and make the Race street bridge available for two way auto traffic as well. Also have Race connect to Powelton with two way auto traffic as the east/west connector in the development. Improvements to connections at SG and JFK remove the need for two additional pedestrian connections.

3. Reduce the footprint of the new bus terminal, while I love the idea of a true intermodal station and moving Greyhound here etc. (to me ensure they do) I think it wastes a prime development parcel. Either reduce the presence and maintain where it is (smaller bus shed allowing for a larger building and lobby on the present plan) with a smaller shed that connects with the sky bridge at the Cira center with bus ticketing in the New North concourse with Septa in 30th or even more out of the box move the bus boarding below 30th street station and use two or so of the boarding tracks under the complex; maybe toward the new underground MFL/Subway Surface tunnel.

4. While I really like the green space I believe a lot has to be pre thought for flexibility and utility. This has the chance to be widely unused nights and weekends. Activate the space especially the Powelton Green for mixed use. Potentially an event space with a small stage as it would be great gathering spot for college or non college oriented festivals. Have some active space - dedicated food truck slots for both lunches for workers and weekend/night events. Maybe a seasonal beer garden. And also potentially fields (ball fields, soccer or the like and a Kids innovation zone/playground. Maybe deeded to Fairmont park with innovative play areas say like a replica Stature of Liberty Torch (first presented in Fairmont park) with a climbing lookout portion in the torch. Maybe other innovations with a local flair or even some homage to rail and the rail yard. Maybe even some old rail cars which can be used for functions etc.

Also on the green space not sure I am on board with the lower river level. Think wont be well used and will have lots of road noise from 76. Especially if cost is an issue to me this goes as seems pricey.

5. Add a auto connection to West River drive - believe there is space just before it crosses the river; this could double as an at grade pedestrian/bike connection to the east river trail linking the two sides. Improve connections with the trail on the east side at JFK and SG with new ramps (probably more a new development for the 23rd street parcel but is key. Also improve SG pedestrian connections though the at grade West river could potentially do a better job there.

6. Other thoughts - why not just extend JFK into the powelton side as a road not pedestrian way - seems to miss this opportunity - to many pedestrian only connections IMHO while not a car lover access will be key and why I also believe the West River connection and Race auto connections are key as well. Race as true East/West connector to Logan Sq and Powelton.

Just some initial thoughts...

Why ditch the ped bridges altogether and insist on more road? The area already has plenty of road access via JFK, Market, 29th, 30th, 31st, Spring Garden (located right off of 76). You can already get there by road from Market West, 30th Street, Science Center, Powelton, Mantua, and 76. The huge cost of building a road bridge from Race Street over CSX and the river trail just to connect Logan Square, an all-residential neighborhood does not seem justified...?

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Early 16.

Gosh that would suck.

This site is just too ready-made for a store like Target. Most developers and/or owners wouldn't care to make the investment for something high density.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

This site is just too ready-made for a store like Target. Most developers and/or owners wouldn't care to make the investment for something high density.

At that location it's just a travesty. How depressing.

Had Philly proper land use planning and logical tax regime, something like this could not happen. Yet another example of Philly enabling itself to achieve its lowest possible potential. Our institutional policy-making infrastructure seems geared to make this kind of outcome the most likely outcome.

I mean, can anyone imagine a progressive-minded Darrell Clarke or Jim Kenney galloping to the rescue to initiate a conversation about getting something better here?

[McBane]

Yes, there's tons of cheap land in North Philly but the whole attraction of the rail yards is its proximity to 30th Street Station, Center City, and the universities. There's already a critical mass here that's attractive to developers, tenants, visitors, and renters/homebuyers. Moreover, the rail yards, when properly capped over, is a blank slate. As much as you want to, you can't just level a huge swath of North Philly, especially to make way for a high rent neighborhood (which is quite different than what the PHA is doing in Sharswood).

That being said, there is still plenty of available land around 30th Street Station (much of it covered by Drexel's Innovation District). Even moreso, the cost of building over rail yards is soooo expensive, that you could even begin to demolish lower-rise buildings that are in seemingly fine shape and replace with a high rise at a far lower cost.

Of course with all that being said, I will add two more points:

1) The rail yards provides a unique opportunity to build an entire neighborhood from scratch replete with high rise density, bike lanes, parks, etc.

2) Remember how Philly got shafted during the 2008 (or so) stimulus? It was because we didn't have any shovel-ready projects. It's fine to plan now because 1) the planning stage itself can take many years and 2) you never know when suddenly that money becomes available.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

At that location it's just a travesty. How depressing.

Had Philly proper land use planning and logical tax regime, something like this could not happen. Yet another example of Philly enabling itself to achieve its lowest possible potential. Our institutional policy-making infrastructure seems geared to make this kind of outcome the most likely outcome.

I mean, can anyone imagine a progressive-minded Darrell Clarke or Jim Kenney galloping to the rescue to initiate a conversation about getting something better here?

Unfortunately yea, zoning and tax policy should encourage something different here.

But actually yeah, I could imagine Kenney lobbying for something better here. He may not be as wonkish as Nutter, but he's certainly a bit, and definitely not exclusively focused on organized labor issues as many paint him out to be.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

I could imagine Kenney lobbying for something better here. He may not be as wonkish as Nutter, but he's certainly a bit, and definitely not exclusively focused on organized labor issues as many paint him out to be.

I voted for Kenney, and I am somewhat optimistic about him. So I hope you are right. Though it may be too late to do anything about this shitty deal.

[Teakwood]

Here’s What to Expect From the Upcoming Art Museum-Area Target
Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/property/2015/1...-museum-area-target/#H7ixFE2OtZkroGK8.99



http://www.phillymag.com/property/2015/1...rom-the-upcoming-art-museum-area-target/

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Teakwood

Here’s What to Expect From the Upcoming Art Museum-Area Target
Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/property/2015/1...-museum-area-target/#H7ixFE2OtZkroGK8.99



http://www.phillymag.com/property/2015/1...rom-the-upcoming-art-museum-area-target/

Ugh, but I won't let it spoil my development geek Christmas. i guess that an eager tenant with deep pockets was too good to pass up. I appreciate that folks would like the government types to crusade against this, but it's the landlord's God-given right to replace one retail tenant with another without incurring the costs of razing and redeveloping the property. If I were a resident of the area, I'd probably welcome this. The parking lot is a disaster (more of a pain than a convenience), but it would probably be hard to convince the tenant to sign the lease without it.

[summersm343]

^^Ugh. I hate whoever owns this plot. Should've been redeveloped with Whole Foods moving. Now we have a suburban big box store here for at least 15-20 years.

[Cro Burnham]

Wow, what an astounding pile of shit. I am gobsmacked, as they say in England. That is just jaw-droppingly bad, almost seems like it just has to be a joke. Even the rendering is 5th rate, like a 9th grader in a computer class did it. It's hard to imagine a more offensive, inappropriate design for that location. An incredible slap in the face of Philly. This is the absolute worst outcome imaginable. Can this even be legal?? My god.

Well, I can still hold out hope: maybe they will at least create a pad for a freestanding drive-in Wendy's in the parking lot with ATV parking for the kids.

Gotta figure the Barnes Foundation board is thrilled at the prospect of this new neighbor.

In other news, Dave and Busters and Sam's Club have announced a series of jointly developed mega-box centers across the Rue de Rivoli from the Louvre, on 5th Avenue next to the Met, and in South Kensington next to the Victoria and Albert Museum. They wanted to build off the natural synergies with top notch cultural attractions, paintball, and bulk peanut butter purchases.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Wow, what an astounding pile of shit. I am gobsmacked, as they say in England. That is just jaw-droppingly bad, almost seems like it just has to be a joke. Even the rendering is 5th rate, like a 9th grader in a computer class did it. It's hard to imagine a more offensive, inappropriate design for that location. An incredible slap in the face of Philly. This is the absolute worst outcome imaginable. Can this even be legal?? My god.

Well, I can still hold out hope: maybe they will at least create a pad for a freestanding drive-in Wendy's in the parking lot with ATV parking for the kids.

Yes, if only a Wendy's.... or a Wawa with lots of gas pumps.... Seriously, however, I'm not sure if you're taking issue with the use (which is depressing, but understandable from the landlord's perspective) or the design. If the latter, I'm not sure that I understand the outrage, as the building already exists and they're just adding some different signage and red-trim. It's fairly low-key for a big box retailer, and goes well enough with the existing building.