Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by esquire

You do realize that the $100 million loan you mentioned will be repaid by the Roughriders who will collect a ticket surcharge for their games and events they promote?

Ah ........ a 30 year loan

Not exactly "Riders money" is it?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Ah ........ a 30 year loan

I guess the Roughriders just weren't as good as TFC as getting the government to pony up the corporate welfare?

Mistercorporate would have us believe that it makes money hand over fist yet somehow persuaded the Ontario/Toronto governments to pay for their stadium which, before the Argos moved there, made Tim Horton's Field look downright palatial.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

Not foreigners, they watch their own shit.

Yeah, I would tend to agree with this.

Almost all MLS clubs have some difficulty in tapping into the large soccer fan base that was born and grew up abroad but now lives in their cities.

Most MLS fans I know in Montreal and Toronto (and also of the NASL Fury in Ottawa) appear to be people who were born here or at least grew up here. In the latter case - often Canadian-raised children of immigrant parents from soccer-mad countries.

Just as an example: in Montreal the large West African-born community didn't pay that much attention to L'Impact until they signed Drogba. I am not in Montreal but I know a number of Africans here in Gatineau and they love soccer but they pay attention mostly to stuff from overseas like the CAN (Coupe d'Afrique des Nations) or the French first division (where many Africans play). And of course the World Cup.

They took notice of L'Impact, though, once they signed Drogba.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess the Roughriders just weren't as good as TFC as getting the government to pony up the corporate welfare?

Mistercorporate would have us believe that it makes money hand over fist yet somehow persuaded the Ontario/Toronto governments to pay for their stadium which, before the Argos moved there, made Tim Horton's Field look downright palatial.

His numbers were quite clear, TFC's stadium is majority corporate financed and on the TFC books (without which they would have a comfortable profit), while WelfareRiders stadium is overwhelmingly government financed on soft terms. QED.

As far as TFC fans goes, I'm actually one of the exceptions, it's mostly 2nd-3rd generation guys born and raised here of usually Mediterranean or UK stock. Portuguese, Italian, UK parents mostly.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

His numbers were quite clear, TFC's stadium is majority corporate financed and on the TFC books (without which they would have a comfortable profit), while WelfareRiders stadium is majority government financed on soft terms. QED.

That would explain the profit differential.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I would tend to agree with this.

Almost all MLS clubs have some difficulty in tapping into the large soccer fan base that was born and grew up abroad but now lives in their cities.

Most MLS fans I know in Montreal and Toronto (and also of the NASL Fury in Ottawa) appear to be people who were born here or at least grew up here. In the latter case - often Canadian-raised children of immigrant parents from soccer-mad countries.

Just as an example: in Montreal the large West African-born community didn't pay that much attention to L'Impact until they signed Drogba. I am not in Montreal but I know a number of Africans here in Gatineau and they love soccer but they pay attention mostly to stuff from overseas like the CAN (Coupe d'Afrique des Nations) or the French first division (where many Africans play). And of course the World Cup.

They took notice of L'Impact, though, once they signed Drogba.

Acajack,

Still waiting for examples of the animosity between Raptors fans and Leafs fans that you stated was quite evident, I find it very hard to believe, are there examples online at least?

[HomerSPC]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

WelfareRiders

I really don't understand why you (or others) feel the need to insult teams in other sports. Call the team the right name, or don't talk about it at all. I'd never call your precious soccer team anything other than their actual name.

[elly63]

I really don't see the need for the CFL/MLS animosity. And if we boil it down it is actually TFC/Argo animosity. As long as the turf is playable at BMO, there shouldn't be animosity and instead dual support (wishful thinking)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Acajack,

Still waiting for examples of the animosity between Raptors fans and Leafs fans that you stated was quite evident, I find it very hard to believe, are there examples online at least?

I've read enough messages in social media and had enough arguments with TFC and Raptors fans about how hockey is dead in Toronto, how no one follows hockey in Toronto anymore... how it's just old white guys from the 905 or beyond who follow the Leafs, blablabla

It's not really singularily a Raptors-TFC fans thing, it's actually a bit of a character trait that many Canadians have about "out with the old and in with the new", and desperately wanting to be on the "new" side.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

Mainly foreigners that move to North America are MLS fans... who else would watch that boring shit!?

If I could get a nickel for every time the morons come out of the woodwork to slag football/soccer whenever it gets mentioned anywhere, I'd be...

Well, there's no mystery or clever punchline here. I'd be rich.

A Venn diagram of the anti-football/soccer idiots threatened by the growth of the game in North America who feel the need to declare how much they don't like it over, and over, and over again would probably be revealing in a sad way. By contrast, it might be somewhat interesting to profile who's watching or going to MLS games in North America.

It's probably not immigrants, as they tend to be loyal to their own far superior leagues back home. My neighbour across the street is a scouser who goes to the odd Toronto FC match just because hey, football is football, but his main complaint is one I've heard from other people: the game is too slow compared to the Premiership, where they're always scheming two or three moves ahead of where the ball actually is, and things move really fast. So it's maybe one game a season in Toronto, but he's a faithful Saturday morning regular for Liverpool matches at the local pub here in town that has Sky Sports.

I'm guessing the urban hipster crowd factors into the fandom equation. Athletic types who find North American sports wanting might be in the stands too. I wonder if the legions of kids playing football/soccer who used to grow up without local heroes will now evolve into adult fans? The TV figures aren't there yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if they grow.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by elly63

I really don't see the need for the CFL/MLS animosity. And if we boil it down it is actually TFC/Argo animosity. As long as the turf is playable at BMO, there shouldn't be animosity and instead dual support (wishful thinking)

Why do you think there should be "dual support" for two teams in different sports leagues just because they share a stadium? People like the sports they like. Why would they feel a sense of allegiance due to a stadium?

I can't imagine most Blue Jays fans caring about monster truck shows or U2 concerts simply because they're at the Skydome.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

His numbers were quite clear, TFC's stadium is majority corporate financed and on the TFC books (without which they would have a comfortable profit), while WelfareRiders stadium is overwhelmingly government financed on soft terms. QED.

When you learned the Riders had more revenue, you claimed TFC was more profitable. When you learned the Riders were more profitable, you claimed it was because TFC was paying all those stadium costs. When you learned that TFC was paying a trivial share for building what initially amounted to a community club soccer field while the Riders are paying far more proportionally and in real dollars, you claimed that it's because TFC's lenders were tougher. Always an excuse!!!

Any minute now you will be telling us once again that the excuse for TFC's garbage TV ratings is because everyone in Toronto is watching soccer on their smartphones .

But don't worry, the Argos are coming and TFC can ride their coat-tails to a fancier and much improved stadium

[Daveography]

Cladding going up on Rogers Place:





Ice District:

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Well - since you asked .......



Conversely BMO's construction cost was $62.9 million - with the land being given to them by the city at a value of $10 million for a total project cost of $72.8 million

$27 million from the Feds
$8 million from the Province
$19.8 million from the city (of which the land was $10 million)
The remaining $18 million ($8 million + $10 million naming rights) came from MLSE. They sold those naming rights to BMO for $27 million

So using those figures MLSE contributed 24.7% towards the cost of the stadium compared to the 8.9% the Riders are kicking into Mosaic.


And that's not even mentioning the additional $90 million MLSE have kicked in for the expansion over the last 18 months or the $5 million they spent putting in grass and giving the old turf back to the city to be used at Lamport Stadium.

Whether they have the cash or are getting a loan from the province, they are still on the hook for the $100 million + $25 = 44.9%

I support both leagues. Good on the Riders for getting the deal done and good for MLSE to step up and put money into BMO.

I hope both do well, and I hope the Argos can thrive in BMO and rekindle their fan base. Regardless of what TFC fans think, MLSE agreed to take the Argos in as a tenant, if they should be pissed at anyone, it should be MLSE

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

Whether they have the cash or are getting a loan from the province, they are still on the hook for the $100 million + $25 = 44.9%

I support both leagues. Good on the Riders for getting the deal done and good for MLSE to step up and put money into BMO.

I hope both do well, and I hope the Argos can thrive in BMO and rekindle their fan base. Regardless of what TFC fans think, MLSE agreed to take the Argos in as a tenant, if they should be pissed at anyone, it should be MLSE

To add some other figures to the conversation...

The Riders also originally signed up for $15 mill in extra leaseholder improvements on top of their $25 mill for the stadium build, but that number has been fairly substantially increased from last reports. So you can likely add another $20 mill to the Riders contribution total.

The Riders also did $14 mill in improvements to the current stadium starting in 2012 for the 101st Grey Cup and the remaining years at Mosaic I, so they've been incurring stadium costs the last number of years as well. Some of these improvements (endzone seating sections and video screens I believe as well) are set to make their way to various locations across the province through the "Grey Cup Legacy Project" after the move to the new stadium. Communities will be given the seating elements from the endzones for them to use at community fields.

For those that don't know, the Riders are a "community owned" team, which means all money flows back into the team or into the community (i.e. the province) through various programming/sport funding endeavours , which is more than $1 million a year as of late. That's why most people here don't mind the $80 mill grant from the province or the $73 from the city.

[Oilkountry]

It's just hilarious that MC truly believes that the Argos won't hit the attendance (27k) they were at just a few years ago going from possibly the worst atmosphere in the league to one of the best. Between BMO and the new ownership I cant see this team not being a hit. 10k commitments for a team they don't even own yet and the season isn't even close to started. I can see how it scares TFC fans and makes them feel insecure I mean the Argos are probably gonna outshine them in there own stadium. Take economics and TV veiwership out of the picture for a second and face a true fact the CFL is #2 in this country, BMO field will be looked at as the Argos stadium from the rest of Canada and really...most of Toronto. I don't want to sound cocky but a high % of people in this country don't even know what TFC is. Because most people don't even know we have pro soccer in this country because soccer really hasn't taken a foothold in Canada yet. Didn't someone post a graph of sports interest in Ontario and the Argos were highly supported in Ontario in comparison to MLS.

Go ask random Canadians to name the 3 MLS teams in this country I bet 8 of 10 will ask you what the MLS is.

If this is a TFC vs Argos issue my opinion is their is more die hard TFC fans than die hard Argos fan because the last half decade of the Argos have been dreadful off the feild. However I do believe there is more Argo fans in general in T.O and I believe the Argos will be successful in BMO as will TFC but i think the demand for Argos ticket are gonna out strip BMO's supply after year 1.

If this is a CFL vs MLS issue...The MLS league wide loses money. They are over paying players like mad because a premier league player coming to north america is like an NFL starter playing in the CFL. But In canada..The CFL is killing MLS in almost every way, actually even in the USA more people are watching a foreign game of cfl football than there own soccer teams. Maybe one day you might take the lead in that but for today the MLS takes a seat to the CFL.

We can go on and on about economics and team value bla bla bla. TFC is owned by a marketing giant where typically the CFL teams are owned by a community or small business gruop and the MLS plays more games than the CFL which gives them more earning potential yet they are almost all losing money because salaries are higher than revenue. You're argument about the MLS growing potential over the CFL's has some validity league wide but not in Canada. And really the CFL has 2-3 more domestic markets and could start expanding south if they wanted to. So the CFL is really limitless as well

I have asked this question 10 times and non of you TFC fan boys have answered so here i go again....MISTER COORPERATE

#1 If TFC played in Rogers center for the last 10 years do you think it would have been successful?

#2 do you think TFC would be successful with the same marketing attention the Argos get?

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Ah ........ a 30 year loan

Not exactly "Riders money" is it?

It is still money out of Riders pocket in the end. It will be used to pay for the stadium even if it is over 30 years.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Why do you think there should be "dual support" for two teams in different sports leagues just because they share a stadium?

I guess I didn't mean that to be taken so literally. I see it more as neighbours, you may not know your neighbour well but you don't go out of your way to shat on them either. If people are so narrowly focused they only like one sport, fine, just STFU about what other people choose to watch and stop pooping on their parade. I don't recall ever saying much derogatory about TFC because I normally wouldn't and I don't know much about them anyway. Now saying something about some of their fans that's a different story.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

I know we've seen the picture of BMO in Grey Cup mode - here it is in regular Argos mode

[Horus]

^^ So, are those end zone hash marks space 4 yds apart, d'ya suppose? Otherwise, that appears to show a 20-yd endzones if the hashes are on 5 yard spacing.

EDIT - I know it's only a rendering - and I don't want to reopen this whole "17-yd end zone travesty" argument again.