Winnipeg Construction VIII

[esquire]

^ Yeah, I'm roughly the same age. I was there for the first night Portage Place was open in 1987... it was a huge deal. IMAX was new and shiny and definitely a place an elementary school age kid wanted to go. For a brief while it WAS the luxury retail area of Winnipeg with many high end stores that no longer exist in this city.

An 18-year old would have a hard time grasping just how much excitement there was at the time over Portage Place, although as we all know, it never lived up to the hype pretty much from day one on. There are youtube clips of news reports where retailers were complaining about a lack of traffic right from the get-go.

[Tacheguy]

I had a bit of a role in the funding negotiations around the Portage Place project. I can remember to this day the Manitoba Premier's right hand person showing the drawings and advancing the plan as the salvation for the Bay and Eatons. The thinking at the time was they stood a good chance of both going dark. Not what you would call investing from a position of strength..

Anyways I often wonder what Portage would look like now if that project hadn't gone ahead.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

I had a bit of a role in the funding negotiations around the Portage Place project. I can remember to this day the Manitoba Premier's right hand person showing the drawings and advancing the plan as the salvation for the Bay and Eatons. The thinking at the time was they stood a good chance of both going dark. Not what you would call investing from a position of strength..

Anyways I often wonder what Portage would look like now if that project hadn't gone ahead.

Portage Place is a funny thing because, as Andy6 has pointed out, on paper it had absolutely everything. Nearly all of the boxes for awesome urban development were ticked... retail, entertainment, restaurant, office space, attractive open spaces, indoor parking, recreation (YMCA), residential, seniors housing, skywalk connections... you name it, it was there. Yet it still failed.

And what's also strange is that downtown mall retail is in fairly good shape in most Canadian downtowns, including slightly larger centres (Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton all have thriving downtown malls) and slightly smaller ones too (Saskatoon, Regina, Victoria). Winnipeg is really a bit of an outlier. I mean, back in the early 80s it probably would have been perfectly reasonable to believe that Portage Place would have saved the two big department stores... the downtown malls have basically done that in the 6 other cities that I mentioned.

[Urban recluse]

I have to agree. The reality is almost every city saw a downtown mall constructed; it was common. The downtown malls in all the other major Canadian cities (save Hamilton and London) are thriving. As I witnessed in London, a downtown mall can be successfully repurposed, and downtown retail can once again exist with charming storefronts along the downtown streets.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Yeah, I'm roughly the same age. I was there for the first night Portage Place was open in 1987... it was a huge deal. IMAX was new and shiny and definitely a place an elementary school age kid wanted to go. For a brief while it WAS the luxury retail area of Winnipeg with many high end stores that no longer exist in this city.

An 18-year old would have a hard time grasping just how much excitement there was at the time over Portage Place, although as we all know, it never lived up to the hype pretty much from day one on. There are youtube clips of news reports where retailers were complaining about a lack of traffic right from the get-go.

Portage Place came shortly after (6-7 years) major malls like Kildonan Place and St.Vital Centre opened, I believe Polo Park Mall also expanded around this time (1986), I think it was poor timing and the hassle of having to park downtown as major reasons Portage Place never flourished.

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

Portage Place is a funny thing because, as Andy6 has pointed out, on paper it had absolutely everything. Nearly all of the boxes for awesome urban development were ticked... retail, entertainment, restaurant, office space, attractive open spaces, indoor parking, recreation (YMCA), residential, seniors housing, skywalk connections... you name it, it was there. Yet it still failed.

And what's also strange is that downtown mall retail is in fairly good shape in most Canadian downtowns, including slightly larger centres (Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton all have thriving downtown malls) and slightly smaller ones too (Saskatoon, Regina, Victoria). Winnipeg is really a bit of an outlier. I mean, back in the early 80s it probably would have been perfectly reasonable to believe that Portage Place would have saved the two big department stores... the downtown malls have basically done that in the 6 other cities that I mentioned.

The difference is that nobody hates their downtown quite like a Winnipegger. There are obviously some social issues that gave rise to this.

In Winnipeg, to shop downtown, you have to be the exception.

If I use my wife's parents Winnipeg growing up stories as a reference, it has taken from about the early 60s till probably around 2000 to totally decimate the public's perception of downtown and the areas surrounding it.

It will probably take that long to get it back.

It's going to take more people living there. We need to keep converting underused space into residential. If a building cannot maintain commercial or office tenants, convert it to apartments. Eventually enough people will be there to entice someone to open a business or office.

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by windypeg

I'm surprised we're still so pessimistic about downtown. 10 years ago there was nothing going on aside from MTS Centre and we had gone over a decade with basically no new towers and hardly any residential. Today we've got 4 residential towers under construction, a new hotel tower on Portage and convention centre upgrades on the way. 10 years ago we would've killed for just one of those projects. The exchange is thriving and true north square on the horizon. It's not an overnight transformation but we're definitely headed in the right direction.

At the same time the suburbs are doing very well, especially in the southwest from both a retail and housing standpoint. That growth used to come at the expense of downtown, now they're all chugging along at the same time. Seems healthy to me

I will argue the Exchange is not thriving. Vacant storefronts, underutilized buildings, surface lots, neglected buildings, and poor landscaping are prevalent. A few somewhat trendy shops does not translate into vibrancy IMO.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/104+Pri...!1s0x52ea715c35120a65:0x9c6215f4744db045

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.8975539,-...FbLOBbesEBJFGpXkVSkDw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.8982398,-...zthjYrpCSTADUEv_plbOQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.8966106,-...BaFR3x4rw_wwzV3Lwuwmw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.8957824,-...CTMAK09D1guW_GaNrnNbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.8956639,-...Es_C248KD_vAvixP0jycQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.9004702,-...Fwua34j6pYY4pviU5jVoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by drew

The difference is that nobody hates their downtown quite like a Winnipegger. There are obviously some social issues that gave rise to this.

In Winnipeg, to shop downtown, you have to be the exception.

If I use my wife's parents Winnipeg growing up stories as a reference, it has taken from about the early 60s till probably around 2000 to totally decimate the public's perception of downtown and the areas surrounding it.

It will probably take that long to get it back.

It's going to take more people living there. We need to keep converting underused space into residential. If a building cannot maintain commercial or office tenants, convert it to apartments. Eventually enough people will be there to entice someone to open a business or office.

I agree, Drew. This is achieved in many other cities. There is a glut of office and retail space on the market in Winnipeg; convert it to residential. Developers do not need to go high end; focus on the mechanicals, but buildings do not need to be gutted. There are many people who would be happy living in many of the raw warehouse spaces scattered throughout the Exchange. Building codes can be met by attaching new stairwells, for instance.

I think many Winnipeggers hate the downtown because they travel; they see vibrant downtowns elsewhere, and return to the downtown landscape of Winnipeg which is rather dreary with so much gray and beige, and numerous vacancies.

[1ajs]

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Yeah, I'm roughly the same age. I was there for the first night Portage Place was open in 1987... it was a huge deal. IMAX was new and shiny and definitely a place an elementary school age kid wanted to go. For a brief while it WAS the luxury retail area of Winnipeg with many high end stores that no longer exist in this city.

An 18-year old would have a hard time grasping just how much excitement there was at the time over Portage Place, although as we all know, it never lived up to the hype pretty much from day one on. There are youtube clips of news reports where retailers were complaining about a lack of traffic right from the get-go.

I used to go there with my friends to hang out all day 😊 There were so many cool stores back then. I was 17 in 1987.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

I agree, Drew. This is achieved in many other cities. There is a glut of office and retail space on the market in Winnipeg; convert it to residential. Developers do not need to go high end; focus on the mechanicals, but buildings do not need to be gutted. There are many people who would be happy living in many of the raw warehouse spaces scattered throughout the Exchange. Building codes can be met by attaching new stairwells, for instance.

I think many Winnipeggers hate the downtown because they travel; they see vibrant downtowns elsewhere, and return to the downtown landscape of Winnipeg which is rather dreary with so much gray and beige, and numerous vacancies.

allot more then just needing stairs

[plrh]

Originally Posted by drew

I have vague memories when Portage Place while it was under construction (mostly to do with the IMAX, because that seemed pretty cool to my younger self). I still vividly remember going to Portage Place quite often when it first opened. I remember it being "the place to go", what with the cool fountain, the shops on the skywalks, cool clock, etc. etc. I would have been about 9 or 10 when it opened.

Speaking of the fountain; why was the water blue?

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

allot more then just needing stairs

Correct, but to keep units affordable for artists, young professionals just starting out, they do not have to be high end insofar as old warehouses are concerned. If I own an office building with vacancies, I would certainly look at converting said spaces.

[Riverman]

The Bay used to have the most amazing record store and there were many downtown. Also poster and head shops, great arcades, Ye Olde Hobby Shop, the Downtown theatre where you could smuggle beer and smokes in to watch 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

It was once great. Winnipeggers don't hate downtown, it has just evolved into irrelevancy.

[Only The Lonely..]

Ahh, the perennial Portage Place debate.

My two cents..

If you told me that someone was going to build a multi-purpose building over a stretch of dilapidated city block downtown, where there would be retail, theaters, apartment towers, heated underground parking, a gym, and connection to the Skywalk system with plenty of natural lighting and glass..

I think we'd all be dancing a Red River jig!

But, this is exactly what is Portage Place.

I've lived here my whole life, vaguely remember it as a new mall, and still can't understand why Portage Place didn't turn out as a revitalization success story.

[BigG]

When Portage Place was built, it was an exciting time for me as a seventeen/eighteen year old. Polo Park was just expanded the previous year to pretty much what it is now and a new downtown mall was opening up. There was a scale model of Portage Place in Polo Park with actual towers at both ends. I actually thought that Portage Place would be our version of the Eaton's Centre in TO. The mall was busy then and I thought it was pretty cool that one can walk from The Bay to Winnipeg Square without stepping outside. Thirty years later, we realize it was a detriment to downtown. Although a lot of construction followed after Portage Place - the IG head office, the hotel (now the Holiday Inn & Suites), Webb Place, and the Promenade. Underground parking was also free to compete with the suburban malls. Can't really put a finger on the demise of what seemed to be a great idea at the time.

[Urban recluse]

I would truly be perturbed if this was a Winnipeg phenomenon, but other downtown malls (such as City Center in Columbus, OH) have failed. When PP opened, the city was stagnant, and the population simply could not be stretched enough to sustain competing with Polo Park, St. Vital and even KP which at that time had a Bay store. Many downtown malls are adding services that do not engage street life, while retail ventures are being attracted to street-facing buildings.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

I would truly be perturbed if this was a Winnipeg phenomenon, but other downtown malls (such as City Center in Columbus, OH) have failed. When PP opened, the city was stagnant, and the population simply could not be stretched enough to sustain competing with Polo Park, St. Vital and even KP which at that time had a Bay store. Many downtown malls are adding services that do not engage street life, while retail ventures are being attracted to street-facing buildings.

It strikes me that downtown malls have been much more successful in Canada than in the US. Some American cities have great downtown shopping streets and districts, but I'm hard pressed to think of any landmark downtown malls. The ones in major cities like NY, LA, Chicago are trivial and basically just small appendages to department stores. Even in a city as big and prosperous as Minneapolis, the downtown malls there are 🞵🞵🞵🞵 and are barely alive.

Contrast that with Canada where you have vibrant downtown malls in Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Victoria, Calgary, Regina and Saskatoon. Edmonton and Montreal are decent in that regard too. It's really mainly a handful of secondary southern Ontario cities (mostly the old Eaton's-developed malls) and Winnipeg where large downtown malls were built and then failed.

[CoryB]

Keep in mind the original contract for managing/operating Portage Place belonged to Cadillac Fairview which was also operating Polo Park. They reportedly used the popularity of Polo Park to pressure a lot of retailers into taking leases at Portage Place.

The original concept of Portage Place had main floor stores with entrances off Portage Ave and those doors can still be seen today. That quickly ended if it even was put into use. A few later additions also tried that model including HMV and Shoppers but both quickly ended that practice.

A big challenge Portage Place faced from day one is that it was further away from the residential population and offered a more limited selection of shops compared to the suburban malls. For example, when it opened there was no bookstore, no drug store and only a single record store, all of which had long been mall staples.

Portage Place does offer lessons for Winnipeg as like the Carlton Square/WCC project before it before developments worked hard to off the "live, work, play" model for downtown Winnipeg and ultimately fell short of their goals for a variety of reasons. Any new project trying to achieve those same goals needs to spend a fair bit of time looking at what worked, what failed, and why. With those answers maybe the next attempt will succeed.

[Urban recluse]

Just as Drew alluded to, the focus needs to be on increasing the population downtown. It is safe to argue that moving forward, the retail hierarchy will no longer be led by downtown. Rather, at the forefront of downtown's revitalization efforts should be specialized and unique retailers, cultural attractions, educational institutions, and of course housing. Of course, if a retail strategy is actually formulated for downtown, and it manages to attract another department store downtown, kudos.