Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I did not even watch the videos because I know thay will make me angry.

Are you talking about Kisai's video in the post just before yours? 'Cause that's a very technical discussion of what happened in the power shoe incident by one of Skytrain's own maintenance chiefs. It's not slanted in any sense at all, and if you're interested in details about how Skytrain works it's well worth a watch.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Are you talking about Kisai's video in the post just before yours? 'Cause that's a very technical discussion of what happened in the power shoe incident by one of Skytrain's own maintenance chiefs. It's not slanted in any sense at all, and if you're interested in details about how Skytrain works it's well worth a watch.

No, that one is interesting, I mean the global news garbage reporting video.

At least so far this missinformation has not infected those higher up who actually decide and build our rail projects (outside of Surrey at least).

The Canada Line became automated and grade separated (despite a fight for it to be at grade LRT).

The Evergreen Line is being built as a skytrain extension (despite the LRT plan put in place several years ago).

And the City of Vancouver is already doing drill hole for their SUBWAY extension of skytrain. (This is one of the few things that I strongly agree with the city of Vancouver on).

Seems only Surrey has been bitten by the LRT bug.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

No, that one is interesting, I mean the global news garbage reporting video.

At least so far this missinformation has not infected those higher up who actually decide and build our rail projects (outside of Surrey at least).

The Canada Line became automated and grade separated (despite a fight for it to be at grade LRT).

The Evergreen Line is being built as a skytrain extension (despite the LRT plan put in place several years ago).

And the City of Vancouver is already doing drill hole for their SUBWAY extension of skytrain. (This is one of the few things that I strongly agree with the city of Vancouver on).

Seems only Surrey has been bitten by the LRT bug.

In doing the research for the video(s) on the previous page regarding Global News, I noticed a pattern.

If you want to frame TRANSLINK in a bad light, always bring on Jordon Bateman, because he will make up a story to fit the narrative.

But to frame the "Skytrain" in a bad light you have to scratch much harder, because no transportation engineer is going to find anything bad to say about the Skytrain that doesn't frame the other options in worse light.

This is just re-statement from what I put in the second half of my video on the previous page but:

1) Bombardier
a) Makes only one train? False. They make 5 rail turn-key rail systems
- Movia Metro (aka Subway)
- Innovia Metro (aka Skytrain)
- Innovia Monorail
- Innovia Automated People Mover (APM)
- Flexity LRT
(and they also make other rail systems and airplanes, but this isn't a Bombardier marketing video)
b) Only Vancouver and Toronto use it? False.
Bombardier's own website lists 6 reference projects
The fact that Vancouver is on that list and the Scarborough RT isn't deflates the "obsolete" argument.
c) Only Bombardier can build the Skytrain cars? False
Changchun RVC produced the Innovia Metro (LIM model) cars for Beijing Airport Express.

2. The Age of the Skytrain
a) is somehow a problem? NOPE. The Metropolitan Railway opened in 1863. What does it run? Bombardier Movia rolling stock as of 2012. The Northern Line opened in 1890 runs Seltrac Automatic Train operation. The Jubilee line opened in 1979 ALSO runs Seltrac Automatic Train operation.
b) Is upgradeable?
The Mark I, II and III are three separate generations that run on the same LIM tracks and same Seltrac software. (Omitting the fact that that Bombardier doesn't own Seltrac and offers it's own solution)

3. The technology is somehow obsolete?
a) Linear Induction motors (LIM) - Are used by more than the Bombardier Innovia Metro. They are used by Maglev's (3 in operation, 5 being built) and in the proposed Hyperloop. Let alone all the Asian subways. Guangzhou Metro line 4/5/6 have 260km of LIM rail (number was cribbed from Daryl's page)
b) Automated Train Operation - Thales, Bombardier, Siemens and Alstrom all make their own ATO products. There are 70 Automated-capable lines around the world (I put "capable" because I don't have the time to verify every line, and went with Wikipedia's list and if they are Unattended.) Seltrac itself is used on 50 lines (but which lines are run driverless, automatic or just ATP again requires verification.) The point being that is a technology that was invented for the skytrain that is revolutionizing ALL forms of rail transport, not just the Skytrain.
c) Guideways, Standard Gauge, and third-rail power.
- Guideways are used by BRT, LRT, Elevated Subways and Monorails
- The LIM in combination with Third-rail power allows for smaller (and thus cheaper) tunnels.
- The TTC is really the odd-man out, with both their Subway and Streetcars (Light Rail) running Toronto-gauge (some of the new lines are Standard gauge)

4. Alternatives are more expensive.
- Restate LIM benefits with tunnels (LIM subway 4.3meters loading gauge, Rotary subway 5.7m loading gauge, LRT, 6 meter loading gauge)
(I combined a diagram from Daryl's website with one I found on a light rail engineering page that had clear measurements)
- Grade-separation vs at-grade
The human cost of at-grade is not considered when light rail lines are proposed by Urban Planners. Urban Designers like Patrick Condon don't like rapid-transit because it encourages people to live away from where they work. In included a video from a Calgary C-train collision where the RCMP talk about the human cost. (Here's a different edit of the same C-train accident news video http://globalnews.ca/video/2294082/calga...y-awareness-after-2-fatalities-in-2-days )
- Automated vs Driver-operated
I go back to the Bombardier page with the 5 different trains. This is all stuff that SSP knows.
- Third Rail Power vs Overhead Catenary
Again, SSP knows this already. It's a space/engineering choice. Both can be critically damaged with bad designs or ignoring maintenance.

- Light rail accidents and delays are frequent
(Video from Seconds from disaster from the Houston LRT)
(Video from Seattle)
(Video from Portland Trimet Accident meeting in 2010 where a LRT driver mentions "hundreds of accidents" and the two he's been in were left-hand turn accidents)

- Subways are fast, frequent and nearly accident free
(Video from 1995 TTC accident)
(Video from "F" train accident in NYC 2014)
(Photo from MTA Commuter rail fireball in 2015)

- Bombardier Innovia elsewhere
Brake fire on Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya line. No injuries. Two incidents in one week. 2015

- Canada Line electrical fire from 2014 (The line being only 5 years old)
No injuries.

- News item from earlier this year with the Breaker trip. No injuries.


Overall, the my video was a rush job to counter the Global News assertion that "only Vancouver" uses it. At some point I may do something more focused, but there's only so much you can put in a video before the person watching it falls asleep from stuff they already know.

[WarrenC12]

I'm currently in San Francisco, which has a great public transit system, including a component of at-grade rail that runs on major streets.

What is abundantly clear here (and Portland to a lesser extent), is that street-level rail requires a ton of space be set aside for it on existing roads. We simply don't have that space in Metro Vancouver. Even our arterial roads like King George and Broadway in these examples would be crippled by the addition of on-street rail. And that doesn't even include the inevitable car-driver caused accidents and delays that would ensue.

[bardak]

I would also like to point out that this accident had nothing to do with the technological differences between conventional and LIM propulsion. Matter of fact I don't think any of the issues had to do with the LIM propulsion.

[xd_1771]

^ If I'm correct, only one of the delay incidents in the past 2 years can be directly attributed to an LIM system issue (as in TL put up a picture showing a damaged LIM on a Mark I car).
And, in that case, the disruption to service it caused was relatively minor (at least compared to last week's and others).

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

^ If I'm correct, only one of the delay incidents in the past 2 years can be directly attributed to an LIM system issue (as in TL put up a picture showing a damaged LIM on a Mark I car).
And, in that case, the disruption to service it caused was relatively minor (at least compared to last week's and others).

Most of the "problems" with the Skytrain are the same problems all other transit systems have:
1) Issues with Brake Shoes, which are a wear part (and why you hear screeches on Driver-driven trains coming to a stop, due to over-application of brakes as if it were a rubber tyre'd car)
2) Issues with power collection (power collection shoe and power rail,) which are a wear part (which is only completely avoidable with battery-operated trains, which is a whole other problem.) Even overhead Catenary and Pantograph's wear out.
3) Rail wear and wheel wear (worse on driver-driven trains due to over-application of brakes, resulting in flat spots on the wheels)
4) Switch problems (which affect all rail systems, because they can't get out of the OMC otherwise)
5) People "problems", eg holding the doors open, vandalism. (Also suicides)

The LIM itself is the most visible "difference" from a subway in other cities, but I'd argue that the TTC probably operates a larger proprietary system of Toronto Gauge rail, which would be FAR more expensive to re-gauge to use "standard" subway cars.

It's completely misleading to go "well if we used standard light rail cars..." because there is no "standard" for light rail any more than there is a standard for subway cars. Every replacement rolling-stock out there is built specifically to the system and signalling used by that metro or light rail system.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

^ If I'm correct, only one of the delay incidents in the past 2 years can be directly attributed to an LIM system issue (as in TL put up a picture showing a damaged LIM on a Mark I car).
And, in that case, the disruption to service it caused was relatively minor (at least compared to last week's and others).

Correct. We had a piece of debris get wedged in the 15mm clearance under the LIM several months ago, resulting in our first reported failure of a motor in 30 years of life.
Frankly that's impressive given how Scarborough had to replace all of theirs in the late 80's due to faulty insulation.

[ssiguy]

Changing SkyTrain technology from LIM to standard heavy rail or LRT? Truly one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of....................what a jackass.

SkyTrain is a great system. Would I choose it if starting all over? Probably not as it is better to have a lot more supplier options and wider more subway type trains with higher capacity. That doesn't change the fact that the SkyTrain has been a stellar success.

Canada Line is heavy rail but ask people which they prefer taking and it's uniformally SkyTrain ART..............quieter. more comfortable, and slower which of course isn't helped by very poor planning.

[CanSpice]

At least that Global article didn't quote Jordan Bateman.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Canada Line is heavy rail but ask people which they prefer taking and it's uniformally SkyTrain ART..............quieter. more comfortable, and slower which of course isn't helped by very poor planning.

IMHO Skytrain wins the popularity contest because it's mostly elevated. Soaring above the city is a helluva lot more enjoyable than burrowing underground. I always thought that burying the Canada Line at Marine Drive instead of at King Edward was a huge lost opportunity.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

IMHO Skytrain wins the popularity contest because it's mostly elevated. Soaring above the city is a helluva lot more enjoyable than burrowing underground. I always thought that burying the Canada Line at Marine Drive instead of at King Edward was a huge lost opportunity.

Indeed, especially in light of the fact that most of the people who would be in a position to complain seem to have sold out to developers.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

Speaking of MK III's. I was at Home Depot the other day and I watched 2 sets of 6 car Mark 1's ones go buy slowly over Moe's. It gave me an idea.

I understand that you can't hook MK1's and Mark II's together. Is it possible to hook a Mark II to a Mark III creating a 6 car train? I suspect that practically that may be a length issue for some of the Expo line stations, although it would probably be a bit shorter than 3 Mark II's hooked together.

I've heard over the years that there is some electrical and signaling incompatibility between the two generations, and there isn't a need to join MkI and MkII 2-car sets together. I would expect that this is true for the new MkIII trains - there isn't a need to have the MkIII trains joined to either MkI or MkII married cars.

To get a 6-car train, its easier to have 3 MkII sets joined together. However, the front and back ends of the trains will not meet the platforms until they are lengthened to match the longer trains, resulting in the first and last doors of the train opening into 'empty space'. Perhaps these doors can be programmed to be 'locked closed' at stations where it is known the platforms are too short for a 6-car MkII train, but then you have a crush of people trying to get through the closest door that is open to the platform.

For MkIII trains, they can be ordered as a 6-car set, but they too would have the same issue of the first and last doors not opening on a platform until all the platforms are lengthened.

This is also why we won't be seeing 8-car MkI trains running until all the platforms are lengthened.

Instead of dealing with trains that can't open all doors on most of the platforms, we can just make the next order of MkIII trains as 5-car sets. More capacity without rebuilding all the platforms.

[CanSpice]

This story about the New York subway system is pretty interesting from a subway infrastructure nerd point-of-view, but one of the systems it mentions as a fix for "why don't we know where all the subway trains are" is a program called communications-based train control, or CBTC. Each train talks with a central control center, has a "safety window" around it that it uses to figure out if it's too close to another train, and generally makes things safer. One example they use is "if there were ever a communications failure, failsafe equipment on each train could instantly trigger the emergency brakes."

Sound familiar? It should. They also say in the article that "in Vancouver, the SkyTrain has had no CBTC-related accidents in more than 26 years."

[Reecemartin]

Suprising Vancity Buzz Article
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/11/skytrain-technology-vancouver/

[Tfreder]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Suprising Vancity Buzz Article
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/11/skytrain-technology-vancouver/

That article made me do a double triple take. A somewhat pro-Translink article from Vancitybuzz?!? I never thought I'd see the day that happened

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Tfreder

That article made me do a double triple take. A somewhat pro-Translink article from Vancitybuzz?!? I never thought I'd see the day that happened

Kenneth Chan actually spends the time to do the research, and his stuff is pretty much the only articles from Vancity Buzz that I ever see. Much of the other stuff on the site is click-bait that isn't terribly interesting.

In the case of this article, it feels kinda like Kenneth Chan cribbed a few details from Daryl, or from SSP, because the timing seems a little coincidental, and a lot of the information here tends to go around in circles every time the media blows it.

Personally... there are a few things that annoy me about Translink/Skytrain, but those annoyances come entirely from people trying to find fault where there is none. Fine, you lost a collector shoe or hit a tree. The media is like "well why didn't the train's intrusion mechanism stop the train? So it's Translink staff's fault?" and doing this "what the hell are you fishing for?" face of being insulted.

I do want to point one thing out, if you watch the video at the top of this page about the collector shoe damage, in my research about equivalent for overhead catenary, apparently there IS a type of automatic damage monitoring system that is sold for light-rail/inter-city rail sold specifically for monitoring wear on the pantograph/catenary. But the reporter in the video asked a more vague "doesn't the track intrusion system detect this?"

[Express691]

http://buzzer.translink.ca/2015/12/new-signs-make-taking-the-bus-a-breeze/

Surrey bus stops to be retrofitted and re-made (to look like those in Richmond)

[xd_1771]

Yeah, the first one was put up at King George Stn Bay 4 a few days back and now I'm seeing tons of them in the Surrey Central area

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

what has happened to adding live bus times to the bus stops? i know a few years ago those showed up down Main Street in Vancouver but i haven't really seen them anywhere else. they are like small versions of what the Canada Line has. is it a dead program? i thought it was quite a good idea.