Canadian Airport Thread

[yyzer]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Someone from Toronto should keep us up to date with all the YYZ additions ironically it's the only big city without regular updates.

Here's the latest.... AC adding YYZ-PDX/SLC/IAD/JAX ......

http://news.yahoo.com/air-canada-unveils-major-expansion-120100722.html

[Bigtime]

Airline Route is a great way to stay updated on changes and possible new services, here is the YYZ page:

http://airlineroute.net//?s=YYZ

[DrNest]

^^ that's a good link. Thanks for sharing. I had heard rumours that Air France were getting rid of their 747s but didn't know what they would use to replace them. The 77W makes sense for this route in the summer.

Speaking of rumours, I've also heard BA might introduce an A388 in the summer for EGLL-CYYZ. But this might not be until 2017 when they have more in their fleet.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

As we have seen YMM in particular is just getting smashed with huge declines in traffic. I'd be surprised if AC maintains three daily and WS maintains its daily flight to YMM from YVR next summer.

Air traffic might be declining but AC removed the late YMM to YYC flight they had at ~10:55pm and that was a huge loss to anyone working shift in town and a huge mistake. There are a tremendous number of people who still work at site on 12 hour shifts and the busses at site generally leave at ~7:30 and do not arrive into town until ~8:30-9:00PM. The 10:55PM flight allowed a person to fly out of YMM on the same day they worked, and that is a huge thing to people who work shift and normally have 4, 5, or 6 days off.

Cutting a flight at some times makes sense, but this particular flight is one where many of the people who flew it will not simply jump to another flight. I was a regular on that 10:55PM flight as I left work with my luggage straight onto the company supplied bussing from site, went to the stop nearest to the airport and caught a cab from that stop to the airport and flew out on the same day I worked. That way I actually saved an entire "travel day".

Without that flight I am not likely to simply change to flying out the next day, more than likely I will simply commute a lot less and stay in Fort McMurray during my days off. The inability to fly out on the day I work greatly reduces the time I have in Calgary between the time I arrive and the time I need to leave and it becomes more of a hassle. The removal of that particular flight is going to lead to a lot of passengers like me choosing to fly a lot less altogether instead of switching to a different flight. It would have been far more wise to cancel a mid-day flight, as they are normally far easier to switch to and from for most passengers. The 10:55PM flight was a niche flight and catered to a very specific need for many of the people in Fort McMurray.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Tropics

Air traffic might be declining but AC removed the late YMM to YYC flight they had at ~10:55pm and that was a huge loss to anyone working shift in town and a huge mistake.

The 10:55PM flight was a niche flight and catered to a very specific need for many of the people in Fort McMurray.

Hang in there, the 10:55pm flight looks like it is returning effective Dec 13th. That's the day AC returns YYC-YMM to six daily.

I'm still amazed AC is only flying four daily YMM-YEG, three daily YQU-YEG and only 12 daily YYC-YEG for the winter.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Hang in there, the 10:55pm flight looks like it is returning effective Dec 13th. That's the day AC returns YYC-YMM to six daily.

I'm still amazed AC is only flying four daily YMM-YEG, three daily YQU-YEG and only 12 daily YYC-YEG for the winter.

If they added flights between Edmonton and Calgary is would cause all sorts of uproar over in the Edmonton thread as well as start crusades to boycott the flights as they may offer convenient connections to other destinations.

More seriously I think economy of YMM is changes and it some ways it is probably for the good. The shift away from oil companies flying working in and out from other cities is coming to an end. The workers that remain either have to do the commuting on their own dollar or to settle and establish routes in YMM and help create a more normal community. I think it is a positive cultural from an economic diversification perspective.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by casper

If they added flights between Edmonton and Calgary is would cause all sorts of uproar over in the Edmonton thread as well as start crusades to boycott the flights as they may offer convenient connections to other destinations.

You hit the nail on the head. Westjet did just that... added flights from YEG to YYC as part of their "massive" expansion at YEG announced in late July. The one where they were adding one daily flight to each of YXE, YQR, YQU, YLW and YCD. What they DID NOT mention are the THREE additional flights being added from YEG-YYC. How — clever! Divulge all the additional propellor flights to Saskatchatoon etc but don't mention the additional flights to help the growing hub down the QE2... This is NOT to diss YEG but a very intentional way by Westjet to not make them look like some sort of a bad guy.

Meanwhile the total add at YYC was about double YEG's additions yet... Not a peep... Again... — clever.

[LO 044]

^Somewhat clever. In terms of the general public they won't pickup on anything unless it's on TV. For myself, it is so obvious what WestJet does but hey throw in a WestJet Christmas video and mix it with WestJet fanboys and AC haters and the YEG thread turns into WestJet can do no wrong. Everytime i bring up the "cleverness" of WestJet or the "Air Canadaness" of WestJet, the WestJet excusers come out.

Johnny and casper if you copy and paste your comments onto the YEG thread, it'll be a about a weeks worth of conversations at least.

[casper]

Originally Posted by LO 044

^Somewhat clever. In terms of the general public they won't pickup on anything unless it's on TV. For myself, it is so obvious what WestJet does but hey throw in a WestJet Christmas video and mix it with WestJet fanboys and AC haters and the YEG thread turns into WestJet can do no wrong. Everytime i bring up the "cleverness" of WestJet or the "Air Canadaness" of WestJet, the WestJet excusers come out.

Johnny and casper if you copy and paste your comments onto the YEG thread, it'll be a about a weeks worth of conversations at least.

Edmonton is an odd airport. Years past they had this "Edmonton First" campaign with signs around the airport encouraging people to fly non-stop over connections. Now the excitement centers around foreign airlines that don't even operate daily such as KLM and Icelandic. if a real hub develops it is going to be driven by Air Canada or Westjet slowly over time connecting the dots. All that said, it is a nice airport to connect through.

I think Vancouver is the only airport in Canada that has any chance of being a major international transit airport not dominated by a single domestic airline and even then Air Canada still plays a significant role in Vancouver.

[LO 044]

^I don't think there is anything wrong with the Fly Edmonton First campaign personally. The more passengers avoid connecting flights, the better the chance that an airline says "hey if we don't provide non-stop service to YEG, customers will flock to our competitor who does". FI and KL have entered the market and AC has left. AC only restarted the LHR flight due to the fact that BA was interested in serving the YEG market. YEG doesn't have 1. Banff and Tourism and 2. Private Business Customers all relative to YYC so we need to think outside the box.

Nobody is asking for WestJet or AC to have a hub in Edmonton, they are simply asking for flights that make sense but the hub model and YEG's proximity to YYC trumps most airlines choice to provide little or any non-stop flights. KL, FI and WS will probably suffice for YEG in terms of competition and choices for trans-atlantic flights.

And yes (the new part of) YEG is very good in terms of what it offers in amenities and flights. I cringe walking through the bland white elephant that is YYZ but hey their choices for flights will make anyone jealous.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by LO 044

And yes (the new part of) YEG is very good in terms of what it offers in amenities and flights. I cringe walking through the bland white elephant that is YYZ but hey their choices for flights will make anyone jealous.

That's an interesting description of such a busy airport (especially the white elephant part).

[LO 044]

^Maybe white elephant is the wrong description but it is just such a boring airport when compared to YVR and YUL. Everything seems so clean and empty. YYZ definitely has the space requirements to throw up some amazing art.

I have to say one thing in general which comes to mind. Canadian airports in general are terrible in having something for kids/families. I am specifically speaking about indoor playgrounds. If you have flown and walked around AMS then you'll know what i'm talking about. Even little WAW has a small playground which my kids and others loved to walk, crawl and jump around. These playgrounds are perfect. You keep the noise to a smaller defined space which keeps the non-kid passengers happy and the kids get tired out and fall asleep faster on the plane ride. I don't know why this hasn't been introduced to Canadian airports and probably most of the US airports as i have only flew to maximum 10 US airports.

[DrNest]

There's a small kids area in Terminal 3 at CYYZ. Although it's in the international pier, so no use if you're flying domestic or trans-border. KMSP has a great climbing structure for kids that includes a mini air traffic control tower. It's been a couple of years since I last flew through there, but if I recall correctly, there's a slide there too.

But I agree, there should be a lot more activities for kids to burn up energy, especially in places where they're likely to be boarding a long flight.

[esquire]

On this YEG thing, Edmonton takes its airport more personally than any other Canadian city, that much is for certain. I check out the YEG thread from time to time and the comical obsession of some posters over avoiding connections in Canadian cities to the greatest extent possible (especially YYC) is just over the top. There have been weeks of ongoing speculation about some new route to Asia, it seriously reminds me of Charlie Brown waiting for the Great Pumpkin.

For some reason, Edmonton uses the airport as a barometer of how the entire city is doing. I don't know of anyplace else that obsesses so much.

Originally Posted by LO 044

I have to say one thing in general which comes to mind. Canadian airports in general are terrible in having something for kids/families. I am specifically speaking about indoor playgrounds. If you have flown and walked around AMS then you'll know what i'm talking about. Even little WAW has a small playground which my kids and others loved to walk, crawl and jump around. These playgrounds are perfect. You keep the noise to a smaller defined space which keeps the non-kid passengers happy and the kids get tired out and fall asleep faster on the plane ride. I don't know why this hasn't been introduced to Canadian airports and probably most of the US airports as i have only flew to maximum 10 US airports.

As a parent, I can tell you that most Canadian airports now have kids play areas, as do many of the ones in the US that I've been through. Finding them can be a bit of a challenge, but they're there. We visited one of YEG's last month and I thought it was quite nice.

[flipv]

Originally Posted by LO 044

^Maybe white elephant is the wrong description but it is just such a boring airport when compared to YVR and YUL. Everything seems so clean and empty. YYZ definitely has the space requirements to throw up some amazing art.

I have to say one thing in general which comes to mind. Canadian airports in general are terrible in having something for kids/families. I am specifically speaking about indoor playgrounds. If you have flown and walked around AMS then you'll know what i'm talking about. Even little WAW has a small playground which my kids and others loved to walk, crawl and jump around. These playgrounds are perfect. You keep the noise to a smaller defined space which keeps the non-kid passengers happy and the kids get tired out and fall asleep faster on the plane ride. I don't know why this hasn't been introduced to Canadian airports and probably most of the US airports as i have only flew to maximum 10 US airports.

That has changed in the last 2 years. Most of the empty space is now high-end retail. T3 is undergoing the same renovations.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by LO 044

^I don't think there is anything wrong with the Fly Edmonton First campaign personally. The more passengers avoid connecting flights, the better the chance that an airline says "hey if we don't provide non-stop service to YEG, customers will flock to our competitor who does".

Nobody is asking for WestJet or AC to have a hub in Edmonton, they are simply asking for flights that make sense but the hub model and YEG's proximity to YYC trumps most airlines choice to provide little or any non-stop flights.

I agree nothing wrong with it but not necessarily successful. Transborder especially. So many routes attempted only to be chopped or cut back in a very short time period. Sure bad timing with the economy perhaps. However, WS has also been very stagnant at YEG on transborder and sun flying. Why is that? Because they are funnelling more pax via other cities and not offering more nonstops. It's fantastic WS is adding flights to the Capital of Saskatchewan and the home of Ogo Pogo and Nanaimo Bars. Sunwing is now the latest to cut and all those flights will make one stop next summer. But for some reason AC gets singled out.

And now we have DL adding a daily flight on a 65-seater to SEA... all they are doing is what every other airline to the U.S. is doing... Funnelling pax to support their hubs. Whether it's DEN, MSP, PHX, SFO or SEA that's all they are doing.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I agree nothing wrong with it but not necessarily successful. Transborder especially. So many routes attempted only to be chopped or cut back in a very short time period. Sure bad timing with the economy perhaps. However, WS has also been very stagnant at YEG on transborder and sun flying. Why is that? Because they are funnelling more pax via other cities and not offering more nonstops. It's fantastic WS is adding flights to the Capital of Saskatchewan and the home of Ogo Pogo and Nanaimo Bars. Sunwing is now the latest to cut and all those flights will make one stop next summer. But for some reason AC gets singled out.

And now we have DL adding a daily flight on a 65-seater to SEA... all they are doing is what every other airline to the U.S. is doing... Funnelling pax to support their hubs. Whether it's DEN, MSP, PHX, SFO or SEA that's all they are doing.

It is weird. Under the Edmonton first program it is better to fly Delta via SEA and connect to a final destination than it is to fly AC through YVR and connect to the same destination. I don't get it, the YVR service has frequency and is a viable business route through the day. The SEA flight is a once or twice per day service. All that said, Edmonton built has a nice modern airport. What it needs now is a good rail connection to downtown.

DL is trying to turn SEA into a hub with all of these connecting flights to major airports in Western Canada. Airports that Alaska struggles to have anything bigger that a Dash-8 on. We will have to see how this pans out. Living in YYJ I frequently connect in SEA and it is a difficult airport. Customs and Immigration can stretched at times during the day. The place was not designed for the number of international passengers it is now handling. At YYJ in a few months we will have two competing airlines on the SEA route, Horizon (Alaska) and Delta.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by casper

It is weird. Under the Edmonton first program it is better to fly Delta via SEA and connect to a final destination than it is to fly AC through YVR and connect to the same destination.

Well if your final destination is somewhere in the U.S. and you can't fly nonstop anyway I would still prefer to preclear in Canada at the point of origin.
However, if my final destination is outside the U.S. to have to deal with immigration on both ends... no thanks!

And perhaps all those who have said over and over they will never fly AC again, perhaps that's why AC keeps reducing flights. AC seems to be making decent profits elsewhere anyway.
And the fact both KLM and Icelandair haven't increased YEG next summer yet is an indication of market size as well. Maybe KLM and Icelandair are full everyday but have not seen any increase in seats. Not saying there won't be but both airlines have been setting up their summer 2016 programs already. KLM has already added capacity to both YYC and YVR next summer. And Westjet giving a token two flights per week on the YEG-LGW. Why does YYC and YVR get more flights? Because Westjet thinks they have a better chance at filling those planes and making $$$ elsewhere. Even if that means hubbing passengers through YYC to fill them. But Westjet can do no wrong!

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

UPDATE ALERT!

Beijing Capital Airlines has just applied for Hangzhou-Qingdao-Vancouver.

This is getting out of control.

Shenzhen is also "rumoured" but I cannot substantiate anything further on that yet. So I will leave that in the unsubstantiated rumour category for now.

Just nuts. I haven't even heard of Beijing Capital Airlines... looked them up and they have a grand total of 1 A330-300, apparently 2 more on order?

The upcoming YVR-Asia growth is difficult to comprehend. I try to stay up to date but I can't keep track of all the new routes and airlines.

Originally Posted by DrNest

I work there and I can't keep track of all the variations. I compiled a list of the heavies that fly in, but there's too many routes and varying aircraft to keep track of what flies where every day and how often. That is unless someone has many, many hours to spare hunting through airline published schedules. And even then, keeping it succinct won't be easy.
I will keep a watch for any new airlines/different planes that come in and post on here what I see.

Ya I just don't even bother. The YYZ international market is so huge I just can't track it. Routes sure, but equipment? No way.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Just nuts. I haven't even heard of Beijing Capital Airlines... looked them up and they have a grand total of 1 A330-300, apparently 2 more on order?

The upcoming YVR-Asia growth is difficult to comprehend. I try to stay up to date but I can't keep track of all the new routes and airlines.

YVR is actually still not too hard to follow as it is still manageable.... YYZ on the other hand... I've given up!

As for Beijing Capital Airlines... it's just another subsidiary of Hainan... same as Tianjin Airlines.

Here's a pretty good article summarising the Secondary Chinese Airlines....

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ch...-to-have-widebody-aircraft-part-1-253336