Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Stenar

The proponents didn't sell this very well. I don't think many people knew what it was about. Because of that, I'm predicting that it won't pass.

It was a pretty half assed campaign. We'll get it next election cycle!

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

It was a pretty half assed campaign. We'll get it next election cycle!

It only lost by 1.8% in SLCO. Fortunately, these type of funding referendums usually do pass the second time around, if not the first, in SLCO.

[stayinginformed]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Only an estimated 34% of the votes have been counted on Prop 1 in SL County and the difference is only 1.8%. I wouldn't say it's dead yet.

34% is the voter turnout, we don't know if there are another 100, 1,000, or 10,000 ballots left to be counted that have been turned in. It depends on how many were mailed in the last few days and were not counted by Tuesday, and how many turned in their ballots or voted on the day of the election. I don't think the turnout for the Prop 1 vote will go above 40%. I also don't think the 2,600 vote difference against it passing will be made up by the final canvas of votes on November 17th.

I voted for prop 1, and am disappointed that it more than likely will not pass.

[airhero]

24,000 uncounted ballots in Salt Lake County. If you do the math, 56 percent of those need to be in favor of Prop 1 in order for it to pass. It could happen.

[bob rulz]

I talked to somebody at work who voted against Proposition 1 because he didn't trust UTA to use the funds properly.

I think for some people it may have been "durr taxes bad" but for a lot of people it was because there's a perception that UTA has poor management that uses people's tax money for their own extravagances.

I voted for it, of course, because more transit is a great thing, and UTA does seem to be making an effort to clean up their image anyway.

[Makid]

So, anyone want to take any guesses whether Prop 1 passed or ultimately failed in SL County?

Official results will be announced today at 2:00pm.

[jedikermit]

Hoping it passed, guessing it didn't.

[Hatman]

It's official. It didn't. Not this year anyway.

Prop 1 dies in Salt Lake County; margin of defeat widens after canvass

[Makid]

Well, Prop 1 failed in SL County:

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3192172-155/salt-lake-tally-on-prop-1

I think there will be a lot of ads and a bigger push for it to be passed in the general election.

That is if the State doesn't just make it happen. It almost happened earlier this year and with the push for better transportation in the south end of the valley and northern Utah County, there is a decent chance that the tax may be passed from the legislature directly.

The legislature wants Trax to Lehi fast but they need the tax to get it there. A full .25% to UTA rather than a split with roads is the only thing that will speed up the line happening before 2035.

With Prop 1 going down in SL County, the only chance outside of the general election will be the legislature that may just be willing to do it.

[Hatman]

Does the legislature really want TRAX to Lehi? I've always been confused how this project would be funded, because it goes between two counties. It would be the first TRAX line to leave Salt Lake County. Having the legislature pass something would be a more streamlined process than having both counties vote on it... again.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Does the legislature really want TRAX to Lehi? I've always been confused how this project would be funded, because it goes between two counties. It would be the first TRAX line to leave Salt Lake County. Having the legislature pass something would be a more streamlined process than having both counties vote on it... again.

At least according to the articles in the Trib, UTA has been asked a few times by Legislators when Trax will get to Northern Utah County.

UTA told them that they are planning to have it start construction around 2040 to 2045.

The Legislators asked UTA what it would take to get it done by 2020 to 2025. UTA told them it would need a dedicated .25% tax increase in SL County and Utah County for it to happen.

A couple of bills occurred in the 2015 general session to do this. 1 bill would have authorized a .25% increase across the entire UTA district. It had some sponsors but others were against it because they felt that people needed to vote on it.

Then another bill was created that did the same thing but allowed people to vote on the proposal.

This was later scrapped into what became Prop 1 with UTA only getting 40% of the .25% increase where it passed.

Even after the bill was passed and signed, Legislators asked UTA if this would help and UTA told them that it would help increase service if it passes everywhere but it wouldn't speed up the Trax extension sooner than 2035 to 2040.

The Legislators did take this under advisement and stated they would discuss how to speed up the line.

[Hatman]

Thanks for the info.

It makes sense that if the legislature is really so intent on developing that area so badly that the move the prison that they would also want the TRAX line. I think the American Fork/Lehi part of Utah Valley is ideal for a light rail line, but the point of the mountain (at least from the current end-of-line to the county line) clearly is not where LRT excels. It probably will take a legislative action to get TRAX around point of the mountain before the 2040 timeframe, and it's good news to hear that they do want it sooner than that.
The question is will they do anything about it, especially now that Prop 1 got voted down in both SL and Utah counties?

[Hatman]

Also, the TRAX Black line. It was a part of the service expansion the tax would have paid for, if I recall. There's also the extra costs of rebuilding the junction on main and fourth so that it can handle the extra frequencies. Does the veto of prop 1 mean we will have to wait at least another year for that line? That would be very sad.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Also, the TRAX Black line. It was a part of the service expansion the tax would have paid for, if I recall. There's also the extra costs of rebuilding the junction on main and fourth so that it can handle the extra frequencies. Does the veto of prop 1 mean we will have to wait at least another year for that line? That would be very sad.

That is my understanding. Unless either SLC or a private donor provide the $2 Million needed to do the matching funds from the Feds, the Black line is dead until extra sustained funding is provided.

The Main and 4th South switch probably won't be touched until the 4th South Trax to Hub extension is under construction.

This extension has been a high priority for SLC for a while and I think the EIS is already complete. It just needs funding. $35 Million or so for the line.

SLC put this behind the extension and double tracking the S-Line. SLC would have begun paying for the line with or without the Tiger funds using part of their share of the Prop 1 increase. As it didn't pass, I am not sure how they will work it. Maybe using some of the impact fees from projects along the line prior to the year off?

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Thanks for the info.

It makes sense that if the legislature is really so intent on developing that area so badly that the move the prison that they would also want the TRAX line. I think the American Fork/Lehi part of Utah Valley is ideal for a light rail line, but the point of the mountain (at least from the current end-of-line to the county line) clearly is not where LRT excels. It probably will take a legislative action to get TRAX around point of the mountain before the 2040 timeframe, and it's good news to hear that they do want it sooner than that.
The question is will they do anything about it, especially now that Prop 1 got voted down in both SL and Utah counties?

With it failing in both Utah and Salt Lake Counties, it does put more pressure on the Legislature to come up with a solution. It is doubtful that Utah County will approve another transit tax. They are too suburban in their thinking to support the type of development that will help transit be successful.

SL County will probably pass the next run of Prop 1. But even with that, UTA won't extend the Blue line to the Utah County boarder as they have stated that Prop 1 funds would go to increased service and frequency and extending the Blue line would have nearly 0 effect within SL County unless it was extended to at least American Fork. Lehi is just over negligible on ridership estimates. AF gets at least to bearable levels for an extension to qualify for some funds from the Feds.

Without going to AF, it would require being 100% funded with local and State funds.

Lehi I think would be $350 to $450 Million. AF would be $500 - $600 Million as the ROW is already owned.

Prices may be slightly lower but it is my estimate based on previous rail expansion costs from the Frontlines expansion.

The State is gaining nearly $300 Million a year in extra funds. If they wanted, using 50% of this for 5 to 6 years, would cover the cost to expand Trax to AF.

Getting Trax to AF might cause Utah County to approve a transit tax to extend the line(s) as branching it may generate more positive votes. Of course to do that, they would need a larger transit tax increase. They would need to get the tax level equal to that in SL County to support more than possibly 2 lines (Blue extension to Orem/Provo and White (new line) to Saratoga Springs/Eagle Mountain splitting around the boarder of Lehi/AF).

[Future Mayor]

Unless the line you proposed out to Eagle Mtn and Saratoga Springs is designed to serve Thanksgiving Point or feed Front Runner in either AF or Lehi, I don't see that it would be an effective line. Same with the Blue line extension to AF, unless that is mainly geared towards getting people to Thanksgiving Point.

I don't anticipate many people wanting to ride Trax well into Salt Lake County when they could get to their destination much quicker on Front Runner.

I've argued this before, but I'll bring it up again. The Blue line extension to Lehi or AF doesn't make a lot of sense to me, ridership wise. There are only one or two office buildings within any walkable distance from anywhere that a stop might be built, particularity if Adobe gets the stop near them. Unless Lehi has a master plan to stop the — suburban style office development that is popping up on the East side of I-15 and creates more or a core there, I don't see Trax being very effective. As for people coming into Salt Lake County, I don't see that either. Same argument as above, why ride the Blue line around the point, east into Draper, and then head north, when they could get to their destination much faster on Front Runner, even "downtown Sandy" would be accessed quicker by FrontRunner than via the Blue line.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Unless the line you proposed out to Eagle Mtn and Saratoga Springs is designed to serve Thanksgiving Point or feed Front Runner in either AF or Lehi, I don't see that it would be an effective line. Same with the Blue line extension to AF, unless that is mainly geared towards getting people to Thanksgiving Point.

I don't anticipate many people wanting to ride Trax well into Salt Lake County when they could get to their destination much quicker on Front Runner if UTA does not change their fare structure. $2.50 to ride Trax 1 way from Lehi/AF to SLC versus $10 or so on Frontrunner is one reason why people avoid Frontrunner now. The cost of $2.50 per station is out of line compared to even the express buses daily fees and definitely compared to the standard bus/trax fare.

I think this is the primary reason that Frontrunner doesn't have even higher ridership. Lower it down to $2.50 in SL and Davis Counties, $5.00 from North and South there to Downtown and $10 end to end each way would probably come close to doubling ridership while also having a real effect on I-15 traffic.

I've argued this before, but I'll bring it up again. The Blue line extension to Lehi or AF doesn't make a lot of sense to me, ridership wise. There are only one or two office buildings within any walkable distance from anywhere that a stop might be built, particularity if Adobe gets the stop near them. Unless Lehi has a master plan to stop the — suburban style office development that is popping up on the East side of I-15 and creates more or a core there, I don't see Trax being very effective. As for people coming into Salt Lake County, I don't see that either. Same argument as above, why ride the Blue line around the point, east into Draper, and then head north, when they could get to their destination much faster on Front Runner, even "downtown Sandy" would be accessed quicker by FrontRunner than via the Blue line.

I agree with the western spur for Trax in Utah County. There is a plan in the MAG documents for an eventual Trax line, it is currently listed under BRT as ridership and density aren't anywhere close to what is needed for LRT and won't be for at least 15 years with current growth rates. The line will either link to the Lehi or AF Frontrunner station. It will also link to the eventual Trax extension in the nearby location (Lehi/AF).

While I am hesitant to push for the Blue line extension, I do think that the extension would have the benefit of forcing Lehi and AF to update their planning documents and zoning to encourage better uses and density around the stations. Sort of what we see happening in Sandy and Draper with both Trax and Frontrunner.

I just think that for Utah County to pass a transit tax, there needs to be incentives for people in Saratoga Springs and Eagle Mountain as they are anti anything that doesn't directly benefit them.

They are anti-Frontrunner because they lost a direct bus to downtown and most are driving to avoid giving UTA any funds until the bus line is returned. This group is strictly a "What is in it for me directly, saving 30 seconds on the commute or prolonging my life doesn't count."

There isn't enough progressives around Provo and Orem to overcome the Northern and Southern end opposition to all things transit. By providing a carrot to the Northern end, it would increase the odds of a transit tax passing in Utah County as the Southern end doesn't have enough population to push against it.

I do think that because Utah County voted against the tax increase by such a wide margin, they should have services cut back to the level they are paying for. This wouldn't be spite but just a reorganization of the funds.

This would also allow SL County to increase service as it wouldn't be donating funds to an area so widely against transit. It may allow 2 to 3 additional lines with SL County which would increase the likelihood of a transit tax passing in 2016.

[HellToSell]

If we had our own line feeding from Lehi to Provo in Utah county, I think it would make perfect sense. I'd hope there would also be a hub station like the one in Murray, connecting to front runner for more long distance trips. Anyone should know that trying to get around by bus in Utah county is just AWFUL. I'd very much like to ride a trax train from AF to Orem if that was a possiblity. However, I must say, I don't know how many people would use it? Part of our problem here in UT county is that not enough people use the transit here. So UTA cuts back on service, screwing the people here who really do need it.

[Future Mayor]

I think the people of UT County, particularly south Orem and Provo will see how fantastic transit is once they get the BRT from Orem to Provo FrontRunner stations. I think it's going to take that before there will be enough momentum to pass another transit tax in UT County.

One of the main questions is does UT County have the destination population to support a trax line? Is downtown and East Bay Provo enough, is the suburban Hell of thanksgiving point enough?

Maybe north county cities should design/plan around the possible transit lines, resulting in a no brainier for Trax to be extended, rather than demand Trax, but have no walkable infrastructure or plan to take advantage of Trax if it were to come. Plan with the end goal in mind.

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I've argued this before, but I'll bring it up again. The Blue line extension to Lehi or AF doesn't make a lot of sense to me, ridership wise. There are only one or two office buildings within any walkable distance from anywhere that a stop might be built, particularity if Adobe gets the stop near them.

So you introduce a shuttle service that circulates between the offices and the station and have the businesses pay for it to encourage people to use TRAX, maybe run it from 7AM-10AM and then again from 3PM-7PM.