Halifax Stadium Discussion

[FFX-ME]

On an interesting side note. I have moved to the states and now live in a small US city with about 60,000 inhabitants, yet there is a 70k seating stadium here. Crazy how such a small city south of the border can build a stadium larger than any in Canada and Halifax is struggling with the thought of building a 10k seater 10 years in the future.

But at the same time, I agree that the city shouldn't foot the bill and that a potential CFL owner should try to acquire a franchise and partially or entirely fund the building of a CFL stadium.... Although, if you build it, the Schooners will come....

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The mayor is saying that for the media - today.

But yesterday at Council he left the chair and went to the floor to speak strongly in favor of proceeding. He (I believe, in concert with Butts) was clearly the main push behind this proposal and was very much in favor of obtaining the property from Canada Lands.

I watched it and some councillors seemed more put out by being blindsided by the reference to a new study for a much bigger facility than had been previously been discussed. Others were trying to move it forward with some pretty flimsy arguments. Then there were the usual types like Watts who only wanted HRM to spend money on trails and bike lanes. Basically it seemed that nobody other than the mayor and maybe Walker and Karsten wanted it to go ahead.

We are going through the same process out here in Calgary with the Calgarynext proposal for a new saddledome. I know the mayor's office brought forward a report to City Council at the last public hearing (my new role is presenting at the public hearing so it was all the talk of the meeting!).

There is talk of using a CRL (Community Revitalization Levy) as part of the stadium but there is concern that because Edmonton did it (and there are a lot of public concerns about how it was done) that lots of due diligence needs to occur before anything about funding gets discussed. The proposal in Calgary is a stadium that would provide for hockey and football and be open to the public.

Personally - I agree that it's tough to argue a stadium is needed when sewer and water upgrades are absolutely required. Putting it on the back burner seems fine with me - considering there has been little to no business interest to get involved.

The issue I have with an 'urban' stadium is getting the fine grain details of the interface dealt with and I'm not sure if that would happen. The Skydome had potential and just didn't get it right.

[Phalanx]

The thing with those large stadiums in small US cities is that they're often college (or sometimes even high school) stadiums, and paid for with private funding and higher tuition fees.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

The thing with those large stadiums in small US cities is that they're often college (or sometimes even high school) stadiums, and paid for with private funding and higher tuition fees.

Or endowments from wealthy families...

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

The thing with those large stadiums in small US cities is that they're often college (or sometimes even high school) stadiums, and paid for with private funding and higher tuition fees.

I was reading about Nissan Stadium in Nashville last night. It is the home of the Tennessee Titans NFL team and the Tennessee State University football team. While there was some contribution from the state govt, and from naming rights and personal seat licenses, $144 million came from the local govt. According to the Wiki page, "The funds initially would be raised through an increase in the Metro water tax. The ongoing funding is through a 300% increase in Davidson County individual homeowner property taxes."

Just imagine the outrage here!!!

I actually find that statement hard to believe but that is what the article said.

[someone123]

Sports funding in the US is completely insane. Not something that should be emulated in Canada.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sports funding in the US is completely insane. Not something that should be emulated in Canada.

Yeah, often the highest paid "public" employee in the vast majority of states, is the college football coach.

Lunacy.

[FFX-ME]

Culturally speaking, it is mindblowing that a city with 60,000 in population has a 70k seater stadium whereas Toronto can't get more than 14k people to CFL games and Halifax can't fathom the construction of a stadium at all.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sports funding in the US is completely insane. Not something that should be emulated in Canada.

I heard that the new Minnesota Vikings stadium will cost more than it cost for NASA's mission to Pluto.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Culturally speaking, it is mindblowing that a city with 60,000 in population has a 70k seater stadium whereas Toronto can't get more than 14k people to CFL games and Halifax can't fathom the construction of a stadium at all.

Are you saying it's unfortunate that we cannot fill a CFL stadium? Is there something about sports that is inherently important for a city's culture?

I for one am glad our civic identity (and willingness to triple our property tax!) isn't dependant on how well a random group of men moves a ball.

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

I heard that the new Minnesota Vikings stadium will cost more than it cost for NASA's mission to Pluto.

http://www.iflscience.com/space/real-cost-nasas-new-horizons-mission-pluto

I won't lie. I was really skeptical of that claim, until I read it. I can't explain why a football stadium would cost $300 million more than a ten year, 14-15 billion kilometre round trip. I also have no idea why the Vikings can't share TCF Bank stadium long term with the University of Minnesota, like they already have for the last two years. TCF bank has 50,000 seats and is expandable to 80,000 by filling in an open end with a bank of seats. It kills me that the Metrodome was becoming "obsolete" and TCF was being built at almost the same time, at a more reasonable cost of $303 million. Yet, these two can't share a stadium for reasons that are either bureaucratic (NCAA and NFL can't share a stadium on a college site) or narcissistic (Zygi Wilf has to have a stadium all his own and knew damn well he could fleece the state and city to get it)

[c-way-dude]

I like the NFL, but I find it disgusting how billionaire owners extort municipalities for new stadiums when many existing stadiums weren't that old. Add to that the fact that the NFL's tv contract is so huge it pays most of the expenses that franchises have.
It's not only Minnesota. Extremely expensive stadiums were also built in NY, Dallas, and Indianapolis. Atlanta is building a new stadium despite the fact that they have a dome that seats 70k built back in the '90's. St. Louis built a domed stadium to get the Rams back in the '90's, and will probably lose the team despite the fact that they are offering to build a new stadium.
The situation in Canada is much different. The stadiums are much smaller, and much cheaper. CFL owners in Winnipeg, Hamilton, Regina, and Ottawa contributed to the construction of their respective new stadiums. CFL owners in Montreal and Edmonton contributed to stadium renovations in their respective cities.

[IanWatson]

Interesting story on Wired yesterday about how the marquee stadiums of the future may be scaled back: http://www.wired.com/2015/11/the-future-of-stadiums-might-be-no-stadium-at-all/

I think it lends some credence to the idea that any stadium in Halifax should be modest and flexible.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Interesting story on Wired yesterday about how the marquee stadiums of the future may be scaled back: http://www.wired.com/2015/11/the-future-of-stadiums-might-be-no-stadium-at-all/

I think it lends some credence to the idea that any stadium in Halifax should be modest and flexible.

That is a very interesting article.
I like the idea of a multi-purpose facility. A while ago I posted about the Fargodome in North Dakota. I think a facility like that could work for Halifax. Think of a 25k stadium with moveable sections and/or retractable seating behind the endzones that could be a suitable football/soccer stadium, as well as a good arena style concert venue. It might even be possible to have a configuration that could provide an arena for the Mooseheads.
The Fargodome seats only about 19k for football, but the venue is so tight that the fan noise level during games can reach about the same level as the Superdome in New Orleans.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Are you saying it's unfortunate that we cannot fill a CFL stadium? Is there something about sports that is inherently important for a city's culture?

I for one am glad our civic identity (and willingness to triple our property tax!) isn't dependant on how well a random group of men moves a ball.

I take it you've never been to London before?

Promoting sport or at least interest in physical activities is as valuable as a library. Possibly more when factoring in that a library is now a community space and books can be found anywhere online. Stadiums and similar sports facilities cannot be replaced.

Edit: And for a CFL reference, the Riders are a key part of Sask culture.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Interesting story on Wired yesterday about how the marquee stadiums of the future may be scaled back: http://www.wired.com/2015/11/the-future-of-stadiums-might-be-no-stadium-at-all/

I think it lends some credence to the idea that any stadium in Halifax should be modest and flexible.

Yes, the stadium should be modest and flexible and able to expand in the future.

I think for the budget of the library we could have a good start.

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

I like the NFL, but I find it disgusting how billionaire owners extort municipalities for new stadiums when many existing stadiums weren't that old. Add to that the fact that the NFL's tv contract is so huge it pays most of the expenses that franchises have.
It's not only Minnesota. Extremely expensive stadiums were also built in NY, Dallas, and Indianapolis. Atlanta is building a new stadium despite the fact that they have a dome that seats 70k built back in the '90's. St. Louis built a domed stadium to get the Rams back in the '90's, and will probably lose the team despite the fact that they are offering to build a new stadium.
The situation in Canada is much different. The stadiums are much smaller, and much cheaper. CFL owners in Winnipeg, Hamilton, Regina, and Ottawa contributed to the construction of their respective new stadiums. CFL owners in Montreal and Edmonton contributed to stadium renovations in their respective cities.

I could talk for hours about stadium minutiae. Atlanta is also building a new park for the Braves, even though Turner field is newer than the Georgia Dome. At least the Falcons owner is putting up several hundred million of his own money to this one. The new disgusting trend in parting fools from their money is Personal Seat Licenses (PSL's). In order to be able to buy NFL season tickets, you have to buy a PSL, that for a seat near the field routinely costs over $20,000. All the PSL does is give you first right to buy tickets to sit in the seat in the first place! How fans let these teams get away with this stuff is beyond me. I like the NFL too, and I've always wanted to attend a Giants game someday, but the new stadium has effectively priced it out of my range.

Even new CFL stadiums have crept up over $200 million for much smaller facilities. I think a lot of the cost seems to be from all the frills that todays fan seems to demand (or at least the owners think they want). Restaurants, swimming pools, and gigantic TV screens the size of city blocks are par for the course. That new Atlanta stadium is going to have a Fantasy Football lounge (!!!) What the heck for?? Why spend all that money to get in, and spend half the time following players in other games? I suspect CFL stadiums scale back on these sorts of things to keep costs down, and your average Canadian taxpayer would demand as much.


I have always wondered if such a thing as a retractable stadium was possible. I wonder how much that technology costs, but it would make a great solution here if it could be reasonably priced. The thing is now that the former Metro Centre has been renovated, is there really a need to factor a new home for the Mooseheads into any wild retractable stadium plans, at least for the short term?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

I have always wondered if such a thing as a retractable stadium was possible. I wonder how much that technology costs, but it would make a great solution here if it could be reasonably priced. The thing is now that the former Metro Centre has been renovated, is there really a need to factor a new home for the Mooseheads into any wild retractable stadium plans, at least for the short term?

It will take 10 to 20 years for any such plans to become reality, if they ever will, so by that time the Scotiabank Centre will again be obsolete and a replacement needed.

[fenwick16]

I think that staging a CFL game (or two) a year at different locations would be a good idea. Then fans could decide what site they prefer, or even if they want a CFL team. It was done previously at SMU stadium to seat 10,000 - 12,000 (?)

Have all temporary seating for 20,000 people. Then various locations could be tried. For example, the Wanderers Grounds, the Commons, the Dartmouth site (Commodore Drive) that Keith P. mentioned. I think Moncton has several thousand temporary seats that they purchased that they might be willing to rent for an event or two.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think Moncton has several thousand temporary seats that they purchased that they might be willing to rent for an event or two.

Yes, the city of Moncton has (I think) 10,000 temporary bleacher seats for rent. They ended up buying them for the third CFL game we hosted because it ultimately would have been cheaper to buy the damned things than to keep on renting them for each event. They have been used at the Magnetic Hill Concert Site and at the Uteck Bowl at Mount A a couple of years back. I believe they have been rented out to other municipalities in the region on occasion too.