Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

Not primarily cost it's CPTED accommodations. Given the openness of the system community response was to have one entry point for safety reasons.

Why on earth is having only one entry a "safety feature"? If you see some creepy guy hanging around the exit wouldn't it be nicer to have an alternative?

[officedweller]

Yup, that's right.

One entrance funnels more people through one entrance, providing more eyes for safety and avoiding long secluded tunnels - that's the reason the Stadium Station tunnel under Beatty Street was closed - it was dangerous.

The City of Vancouver also favours pedestrian traffic at grade on sidewalks rather than underground in tunnels - that also extends to retail presence on the street, rather than in underground malls.

And remember that the 2nd entrance at Gateway Station was sealed up as well - presumably due to safety concerns - even at an elevated station.

Originally Posted by MIPS

Just stroll underneath the station and you can clearly see rectangular knockouts where the stairs used to be. Up on the platform notice how the south end has no seating or anything and two oddly placed hanging signs you'd normally expect to see at the top of a flight of stairs or escalators.


Image courtesy of Jeremiah Cox--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/\
Yesterday 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by logicbomb

^Now I remember! They got rid of that stairway in 2000/2001ish. Probably the dumbest thing they did as you have many people jaywalking across 5 lanes to catch their bus at the EB bus stop.

Guess it wasn't a big deal back then as people rarely boarded at Gateway Station. Frequencies back in the early 2000's -332 ran hourly most of the day. 335 ran hourly till 6:55pm. 328 Grosvenor ran every 120 min.

It is just a very awkwardly built station.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=139672&highlight=gateway&page=71

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yup, that's right.

One entrance funnels more people through one entrance, providing more eyes for safety and avoiding long secluded tunnels - that's the reason the Stadium Station tunnel under Beatty Street was closed - it was dangerous.

Where was this tunnel? Can you see remnants of it anywhere today?

[officedweller]

It's still there - conceivably the Art Gallery block (office towers) could link to it.
It's filled with sand and visible at grade by 2 parallel concrete pony walls.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by officedweller

One entrance funnels more people through one entrance, providing more eyes for safety and avoiding long secluded tunnels - that's the reason the Stadium Station tunnel under Beatty Street was closed - it was dangerous.

I don't buy it at all. There's no reason for "long secluded tunnels" if you design your stations sensibly. The Toronto subway stations are generally laid out so that there are entrances towards each end of both platforms, and each of those rises directly up to the street level in all four quadrants of the intersection.

And the idea of funneling everyone through a single exit to provide "safety in numbers" is also bogus, IMHO. If you're worried about being alone, multiple exits don't rob you of the ability to exit the station with the crowd. And if it's just you and one stranger getting off the train, you have the choice of using the other exit if he seems kind of sketchy.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Where was this tunnel? Can you see remnants of it anywhere today?

here it is!
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2799565,-...w%3D265.70642%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I don't buy it at all. There's no reason for "long secluded tunnels" if you design your stations sensibly. The Toronto subway stations are generally laid out so that there are entrances towards each end of both platforms, and each of those rises directly up to the street level in all four quadrants of the intersection.

And the idea of funneling everyone through a single exit to provide "safety in numbers" is also bogus, IMHO. If you're worried about being alone, multiple exits don't rob you of the ability to exit the station with the crowd. And if it's just you and one stranger getting off the train, you have the choice of using the other exit if he seems kind of sketchy.

Crime doesn't happen to people who feel scared. I'm sure Thomas and Martha Wayne felt perfectly comfortable walking down that dark alley. But look how that turned out.

You might feel perfectly comfortable walking down a dark corridor by yourself, but you have no idea what is waiting for you at the other end. And being alone gives criminals opportunity, not your scardypants level.

So by having everyone go through the same exit it reduces the likelihood of people being alone. It doesn't make people feel safe, it actually makes them statistically safer.

But there are other advantages to single exits.

It enhances crowd control by having only one entrance (if you need to make people queue it is more fair and easier to manage).

It reduces cost (you only need 1 set of ticket machines, faregates, elevators, escalators).

It reduces the need to negotiate with third parties (no need for contracts to set up exits into third party buildings or on their land).

It reduces the likelihood of vandalism (more people in one spot makes it harder to loiter).

It reduces staffing levels (if you need staff present to help people with faregates or handicapped access).

And it makes it easier for first responders (if a suspect is being chased there is only one way he can exit).

Of course though, there are situations that do warrant multiple exits. Like high volume stations where a single exit might get swamped or where it does fit in with existing or enhanced infrastructure (like the malls and office complexes downtown). Or when a single exit is much too far away from a second potential exit (like the Canada Line Waterfront station or Stadium station, the 2 entrance points are quite a far walk from each other, more than just a block). There are going to be situations where convince does trump safety and cost.

But going forward, most regular stations will probably only have one entrance. And I don't know how many of the Broadway line stations would really warrant multiple entrances.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Crime doesn't happen to people who feel scared. I'm sure Thomas and Martha Wayne felt perfectly comfortable walking down that dark alley. But look how that turned out.

You might feel perfectly comfortable walking down a dark corridor by yourself, but you have no idea what is waiting for you at the other end. And being alone gives criminals opportunity, not your scardypants level.

So by having everyone go through the same exit it reduces the likelihood of people being alone. It doesn't make people feel safe, it actually makes them statistically safer.........

But there are other advantages to single exits.

..............
Of course though, there are situations that do warrant multiple exits. Like high volume stations where a single exit might get swamped or where it does fit in with existing or enhanced infrastructure (like the malls and office complexes downtown). Or when a single exit is much too far away from a second potential exit (like the Canada Line Waterfront station or Stadium station, the 2 entrance points are quite a far walk from each other, more than just a block). There are going to be situations where convince does trump safety and cost.

But going forward, most regular stations will probably only have one entrance. And I don't know how many of the Broadway line stations would really warrant multiple entrances.

Here in Paris, it's much as you say. There are, of course many more Metro stations than in Vancouver, but less
important stations have only one exit, while,of course, larger stations, esp interchanges, have more It's natural. There is a degree of adaptability at hand. It's not either / or.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I don't buy it at all. There's no reason for "long secluded tunnels" if you design your stations sensibly. The Toronto subway stations are generally laid out so that there are entrances towards each end of both platforms, and each of those rises directly up to the street level in all four quadrants of the intersection.

And the idea of funneling everyone through a single exit to provide "safety in numbers" is also bogus, IMHO. If you're worried about being alone, multiple exits don't rob you of the ability to exit the station with the crowd. And if it's just you and one stranger getting off the train, you have the choice of using the other exit if he seems kind of sketchy.

It also reduces the chance of being hit by a car.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

here it is!
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2799565,-...w%3D265.70642%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

Got two better angles.

Inside the station, just left of the Lost and Found. Note the handrails that vanish into the wall and the "Beatty St West" sign.

Image courtesy of MIPS

Street level. Notice the lights going downwards.

Image courtesy of MIPS

[jsbertram]

I saw more Foundex crews on Broadway this weekend.

one crew just east of Oak, equipment looks the same as what I saw last week on Laurel

another crew in front of the Holiday Inn again, looks like the same equipment used at Broadway/Cambie a few weeks ago.

I'm wondering why they would need to do more core samples at the same locations already sampled a few weeks ago. Is the geology under Broadway really so odd?

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I don't buy it at all. There's no reason for "long secluded tunnels" if you design your stations sensibly. The Toronto subway stations are generally laid out so that there are entrances towards each end of both platforms, and each of those rises directly up to the street level in all four quadrants of the intersection.

And the idea of funneling everyone through a single exit to provide "safety in numbers" is also bogus, IMHO. If you're worried about being alone, multiple exits don't rob you of the ability to exit the station with the crowd. And if it's just you and one stranger getting off the train, you have the choice of using the other exit if he seems kind of sketchy.

In the case of a train accident, mass shooting/gas leak (within the station) or worse, an earthquake it's clearly a health/safety issue to have just a single entrance/exit.......I can see Translink getting sued for such negligence in planning should someone suffers respiratory crisis or is trampled by panicking hordes trying to use a single exit during any given disaster!

[Innsertnamehere]

building code in Ontario requires multiple exits for subway stations now, and the TTC is in the slow (and expensive) process of adding second exits to stations in Toronto that only have a single entrance to them currently.

[nname]

I think building code in BC requires at least two exits too. For all the single-entrance stations, there are also an emergency exit.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

In the case of a train accident, mass shooting/gas leak (within the station) or worse, an earthquake it's clearly a health/safety issue to have just a single entrance/exit.......I can see Translink getting sued for such negligence in planning should someone suffers respiratory crisis or is trampled by panicking hordes trying to use a single exit during any given disaster!

I'm pretty sure every station has two exits, even if one exit is emergency-only.

The Expo line, I can name off hand:
Waterfront has the Station exit on Cordova, The exit at the corner of Grandville Square, the Seabus is also an Exit if there was an issue in the station itself.
Burrard station has two paths through the station from each floor, but arguably the station was supposed to be larger and connect across the road to Park Place.
Grandville station has more than one exit. It has the Bay entrance, the London Drugs entrance, an Exit on Seymour and another exit on Dunsmiur.
Stadium has Beatty at Dunsmiur, an exit on Expo Boulevard (and there is a parallel emergency exit from the tracks on that side), and the Keefer Place exit.

All the rest of the stations that don't disappear underground, you can clearly see emergency exits at both ends of the tracks in addition to the station entrances. Right now Metrotown station is a victim of the "only one path to the train" design which I think had more to do with it pre-dating the current incarnation of the mall which was originally designed as a park-and-ride.

Like Main Street, Broadway, Joyce, Patterson, and Royal Oak all have 3-4 visible exits before you include the emergency exits.

What I think Metro Vancouver lacks, is actual "subway" style entrance/exits.

The TTC typically has exits on both sides of the street because the subway tunnel is physically underneath the street. Only the Canada Line in Metro Vancouver was built this way (cut and cover), which has only one visible street-level exit at the underground stations. But this discounts the emergency exit and the elevator as well.

The Millennium Line stations mostly have the tracks running through the center of the station, which means there are at least two exits on each side of the platform level, one being the fire escape.

Ultimately no station is designed with only a single entrance/exit, as there are fire escapes.

[jsbertram]

I noticed Foundex was drilling again on Broadway last week.

first site was at Michaels in the centre of Broadway.

Second site was a different crew (and equipment) at Oak & Broadway, north side on Oak in front of the mattress store.


I'm wondering if they found some 'interesting' geology in the original core samples, since they've now taken cores on almost every block along Broadway between Cambie and Oak.



I had a cousin living on 8th ave near Oak, and he would joke that one day his place would be waterfront property - after The Big One Earthquake causes all of the land in that area north of Broadway to slump and slide into False Creek.

Wifey and Kids became freaked out so much that they moved close to Q.E. Park (the theory being an extinct volcano ain't going no-where during The Big One)

[GeeCee]

Frequent core samples are the norm for tunneling. You should have seen how many they took for the Evergreen Line! They filled up one of the warehouses on Clark Drive with them.

[squeezied]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but if they're doing core samples does that mean they've determined the subway to go under Broadway as opposed to 10th ave?

[GeeCee]

I don't think there was ever any serious consideration of 10th Avenue so much as the appearance of an option being considered.

[Large Cat]

What I really want then is for every new station on Broadway to have 4 entrances, one on each corner, with an elevator and stairs at each entrance. The elevators on the north side will have three levels: WB Platform, Concourse, and Street. The elevators on the south side will have three levels: EB Platform, Concourse, and Street. The Concourse Level will be a square with walkways between all 4 elevators/stairs, replacing at-grade street crossings. The faregates will be at platform level so that the Concourse level can be used by people not even travelling on the Skytrain. This is to smooth out motor vehicle and potential future bicycle traffic as well as improve pedestrian safety and convenience. The Concourse level will also have all of the Compass Vending Machines as well as any underground retail a la Jugo Juice.

At the new Main/Broadway station, the platforms will be underground parallel to underneath Broadway in between Main and Kingsway (roughly at Watson), and there will be ramps from Platform to Concourse and from Concourse up to the street on both sides, and in both directions (i.e. two ramp entrances closer to Main, two closer to Kingsway). In addition, the concourse level will extend on both sides past the ramps to both Kingsway and Main, connecting to TWO underground concourse "squares" below both Main&Broadway and Kingsway&Broadway. Although the ramps will obviate elevators between Main and Kingsway, at the other sides of the squares (i.e. on the west side of Main and Broadway and the east side of Kingsway and Broadway), there will have to be two elevators (one for the north side and one for the south side), since there is not enough space for the ramps to slope all the way up. All in all this still means 4 elevators for the new Main St station, along with 4 ramps.

All of this is assuming the platforms are separate and the tracks adjacent to each other, as at Broadway-City Hall. Since the elevators will be expensive, at least doing the track and platforms this way will be cheaper.

This is not a transit fantasy