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  #441  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 12:35 PM
IanWatson IanWatson is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The value would be in the message it sends to the cycling community that not all infrastructure is free.
We should probably start tolling sidewalks too. I mean, they're certainly not free. Oh, and they should definitely add a collection box to the entrance of the Public Gardens.
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  #442  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 1:41 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The value would be in the message it sends to the cycling community that not all infrastructure is free.
I don't think that message would come through clearly, assuming that we would even want to communicate such a message. If anything, it could discourage cyclists from using their bikes to commute which would be a negative for everybody.

That line of thinking is kind of ridiculous actually, considering that once the initial costs are covered there will be little wear and tear over and above that caused by our harsh weather (i.e. corrosion), which affects everything equally but can be dealt with relatively easily through regular maintenance.

As mentioned, we should be trying to encourage more cycle use to take cars off the road, and reduce costs on everything else. It may seem like a waste of money to some, but it's really an investment in the long run.
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  #443  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I don't think that message would come through clearly, assuming that we would even want to communicate such a message. If anything, it could discourage cyclists from using their bikes to commute which would be a negative for everybody.

That line of thinking is kind of ridiculous actually, considering that once the initial costs are covered there will be little wear and tear over and above that caused by our harsh weather (i.e. corrosion), which affects everything equally but can be dealt with relatively easily through regular maintenance.

As mentioned, we should be trying to encourage more cycle use to take cars off the road, and reduce costs on everything else. It may seem like a waste of money to some, but it's really an investment in the long run.
There are always ongoing costs. Look at the now-former bridge bike lanes. Several million to construct for 15 years of minimal use before it had to be replaced. I am surprised HHB even agreed to replace it.

Cycling is not a sustainable or effective way to take cars off the road in this environment. Only the most extreme zealots will use a bicycle to go to work when the weather is unpleasant. We would be far better off investing in and encouraging them to use an improved transit system.
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  #444  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 2:37 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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There are always ongoing costs. Look at the now-former bridge bike lanes. Several million to construct for 15 years of minimal use before it had to be replaced. I am surprised HHB even agreed to replace it.

Cycling is not a sustainable or effective way to take cars off the road in this environment. Only the most extreme zealots will use a bicycle to go to work when the weather is unpleasant. We would be far better off investing in and encouraging them to use an improved transit system.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic. The costs incurred on the bridge at that time were to be able to increase traffic to 3 lanes without a loss in current usage to pedestrians/cyclists. It's called the cost of doing business in most places. Big projects cost big money, and oftentimes the costs of implementing extra features such as bike lanes is actually smaller than you might imagine, as they are already in there doing the work.

Also, you are implying that the lifespan of the existing bike lane was only 15 years, which as has been mentioned, is only being replaced because the rest of the deck has to be done. You can see by the pics of the spans which are being placed on the trails that they are actually in good shape, and will continue to be used in that capacity for many decades to come.

If you really want to nit-pick, then perhaps the entire deck replacement should have happened 15 years ago to save the cost of doing bike lanes twice. Then you'd have to balance the cost benefit of extending the life of the old deck for 15 years vs the cost of moving the bike and pedestrian access to the outside of the deck.

Regardless of when and how often they are being used, every bike that is used is potentially one single-user motor vehicle that will not be on the road. I don't see why you are so against it, as this means less traffic for you to drive your car through - that's not a bad thing as I see it.

And yes, I agree that we should incorporate improved transit for everybody to use, it's all to the good.
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  #445  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 3:14 PM
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Infrastructure not free? Isn't that what we pay taxes for? It only costs extra for the autos because theirs is so much more expensive that gas taxes and income and sales taxes can't cover it all.
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  #446  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 4:10 PM
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Fine, we'll agree to disagree, even though there has been discussion that the added weight of suspending the bike lane structure was a big part of why the deck failed so quickly and needed to be replaced this time around.
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  #447  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 4:23 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Fine, we'll agree to disagree, even though there has been discussion that the added weight of suspending the bike lane structure was a big part of why the deck failed so quickly and needed to be replaced this time around.
Fair enough, though I would be interested in reading the engineering analysis if this is the case.
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  #448  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 8:02 PM
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Fine, we'll agree to disagree, even though there has been discussion that the added weight of suspending the bike lane structure was a big part of why the deck failed so quickly and needed to be replaced this time around.
Do you have a source for that? Just curious - its the first time i heard the deck had a shorter then expected life span.
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  #449  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2015, 6:49 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/nov/13/meet-the-supercommuters
5 hours a day commuting to work !!!!

" From my house, I cycle along country roads, then I get two trains across Glasgow, then I’m back on my bike on country roads. It takes me about 2hr 15mins in the morning, and about 2hr 45min in the evening. I get up about 5.20am and I leave the house just before 6am, then cycle about nine miles to the station. I change trains in Glasgow, then I have a six-mile cycle at the other end. I normally get back home about 7.15pm. "
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  #450  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2015, 12:41 PM
IanWatson IanWatson is offline
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Paint lines are down for the Rainnie St. bike lane. The lane itself is still blocked off though. Looks like they still have some work to do with signage, etc.
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  #451  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2015, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by IanWatson View Post
Paint lines are down for the Rainnie St. bike lane. The lane itself is still blocked off though. Looks like they still have some work to do with signage, etc.
Here is HRM's latest waste of our money. Look at this thing. Even crosses a sidewalk slab at the end, so now cyclists can harass both automobiles AND pedestrians! Just wait to hear the howling the first time there is an event at the Scotiabank Center and people park in it. Meanwhile the most useful street for getting to/from downtown has been destroyed. This is just ridiculously ill-conceived all-around.




(Photo credit:@DartmouthKate on Twitter)
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  #452  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2015, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
Here is HRM's latest waste of our money. Look at this thing. Even crosses a sidewalk slab at the end, so now cyclists can harass both automobiles AND pedestrians! Just wait to hear the howling the first time there is an event at the Scotiabank Center and people park in it. Meanwhile the most useful street for getting to/from downtown has been destroyed. This is just ridiculously ill-conceived all-around.




(Photo credit:@DartmouthKate on Twitter)
As apposed to drivers harassing cyclists?
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  #453  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2015, 11:29 PM
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As apposed to drivers harassing cyclists?
Drivers can certainly be a nuisance. On my commute home today I almost got hit by two cars that thought stop signs were just suggestions.

Regarding Keith's comments there will be posts installed in the buffer zone along Rainnie so cars won't park in the bike lane.

On another note the Sackville Greenway is under construction!


Halifax Developments Blog (Photo by David Jackson)
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  #454  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2015, 11:39 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Drivers can certainly be a nuisance.
I have to say I am disappointed every time I read this sort of comment from either "side". It just cements the differences between us all and perpetuates the "us" vs "them" mentality. Whether it's drivers complaining about cyclists, or cyclists complaining about drivers, or pedestrians complaining about all of them.. whatever.

I think it's time we moved forward and recognized that we are all part of the picture and we need to learn how to be respectful and aware of each others' situations. The main goal in commuting is getting to where you want to go, and arriving there healthy and in good spirits. If we can accomplish this, then we all win.

So I would like to propose that we stop the mudslinging and accept that the other isn't going away. I know that unless the public in general suddenly becomes a whole lot smarter, that these problems aren't going to disappear completely, but let's at least try to make a baby-step towards it. Let's try to be bigger than this.
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  #455  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2015, 11:01 PM
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There was a small unofficial opening yesterday for Rainnie Drive;


Halifax Developments Blog (Photo by David Jackson)
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  #456  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2015, 11:05 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
Here is HRM's latest waste of our money. Look at this thing. Even crosses a sidewalk slab at the end, so now cyclists can harass both automobiles AND pedestrians! Just wait to hear the howling the first time there is an event at the Scotiabank Center and people park in it. Meanwhile the most useful street for getting to/from downtown has been destroyed. This is just ridiculously ill-conceived all-around.




(Photo credit:@DartmouthKate on Twitter)
But since nobody cycles, and nobody will use this lane, how will they be getting in the way?

I'm not sure if you legitimately think that "hardly anyone cycles" or if you just wish this were the case. If hardly anyone cycles then this will not present any issues. If enough people cycle that it will potentially cause problems, then it is needed, and more money should have been spent to better mitigate these problems.
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  #457  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2015, 11:21 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I have to say I am disappointed every time I read this sort of comment from either "side". It just cements the differences between us all and perpetuates the "us" vs "them" mentality. Whether it's drivers complaining about cyclists, or cyclists complaining about drivers, or pedestrians complaining about all of them.. whatever.

I think it's time we moved forward and recognized that we are all part of the picture and we need to learn how to be respectful and aware of each others' situations. The main goal in commuting is getting to where you want to go, and arriving there healthy and in good spirits. If we can accomplish this, then we all win.

So I would like to propose that we stop the mudslinging and accept that the other isn't going away. I know that unless the public in general suddenly becomes a whole lot smarter, that these problems aren't going to disappear completely, but let's at least try to make a baby-step towards it. Let's try to be bigger than this.
Unfortunately the issue has become politicized and I don't think that will ever go away. There are a few schools of thought that are quite common:


A: Climate change is very real, and is a very pressing issue, and we should be doing whatever we can to reduce our impact including pushing the number of people who drive cars (but don't have to) to near 0. Cycling infrastructure is a key part of this for most, and for many, so is actively making it more difficult for people to drive. The latter is not necessarily the dominant attitude, but is certainly common, among the planning/urbanist community in particular.

B: Climate change is very real, and is a very pressing issue, but the amount of impact that could be reduced by having everyone in Halifax stop driving cars is negligible, especially in proportion to the inconveniences it would cause. There should be a "balanced" approach that doesn't treat this as an emergency, and continues to make things as convenient as possible for both cars and bicycles. Unfortunately this is much easier said than done, especially with the limited amounts of space we're working with, and is kind of unfair to the younger generation that will likely have to deal with the effects of climate change, but whatever.

C: The oil industry is controlled by greedy capitalists who are willing to sell out our planet's future so they can live like kings for the rest of their lives. We should be doing everything we can to eliminate the oil industry (because it is also accelerating climate change), including getting rid of all vehicles that run on oil. While again not a dominant viewpoint, there are certainly undertones of this present in most discussions.

D: Cyclists are annoying anarchists who use their means of transportation as a means of activism. Many of them do not obey traffic laws (sometimes deliberately, to make a point) and this does create real dangers. We should not give in to their demands, just as we should not negotiate with terrorists. If people insist on cycling, at the very least, they should be subjected to the same kinds of road tests (and ideally, fees) that drivers are. Anything less is unfair to drivers and creates an environment where many cyclists do not know the rules of the road and will behave erratically. (One could also point out that many drivers do not know/follow the rules of the road and/or drive erratically, with much, much more serious consequences, but whatever).

E: Cycling is trendy in many cities, especially among young people, and improving cycling infrastructure would be an effective way of helping to retain/attract more 18-35 yr olds.

F: We live in a car culture and if we don't continue to make concessions to cars, people will become so fed up with traffic that they will move away and/or productivity will suffer drastically. Bike lanes should be seen as a frill, not a necessity. The real people who really matter mostly drive cars, and we should not upset them for the sake of a bunch of hippies who hate mainstream society, including, quite possibly, you or I.

G: Halifax is a hilly city with notoriously bad weather and cycling is not a practical means of transportation for most people for a significant chunk of the year.


There are certainly other schools of thought, and I don't necessarily subscribe to any of these completely (other than "E" and "G") although they are all true to a point and I can certainly sympathize with anyone who strongly holds any of these opinions. But I'd argue that this is why it's become difficult to have a civilized/productive discussion on the topic that moves beyond "YAY OUR SIDE! BOOOOOOO YOUR SIDE!" Most people I know subscribe firmly to one of these viewpoints (or else never talk about such things).

This of course ignores the fact that many people use both bicycles AND cars, and that many people use neither.

Last edited by Hali87; Nov 22, 2015 at 12:35 AM.
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  #458  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2015, 12:19 AM
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I should quickly defend my comment by saying on a typical week I walk, bike, drive, and bus. I encounter bad road-users all the time. Drivers that think signs are suggestions, pedestrians who don't stop or look before crossing a street, cyclists that jump on and off of the sidewalk, and bus drivers that leave the doors open even when it's -20C outside are all things that I encounter regularly but overall my comment earlier about drivers failing to stop at stop-signs are the most likely to cause harm to others so it is top of my list.

As per the other conversation going on in this thread the Rainnie Drive two-way separated on-road bike lane was not planned in advanced so with this in mind I do agree that it needs some tweaks done to make it better but considering how quickly it was thrown together I am still glad it was even installed. The aim is to extend the lane east to Brunswick and then south to Sackville or Spring Garden once those intersections can be planned in detail so the odd design of Rainnie/Gottingen is only temporary and was the only way to construct it without a budget increase.
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  #459  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2015, 1:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
There are certainly other schools of thought, and I don't necessarily subscribe to any of these completely (other than "E" and "G")
I don't know about "G" to be honest.

Yes, there are lots of hills in Halifax, but it is possible to plan out routes that are less hilly, and biking up and down hills is not the end of the world anyway. I'm not a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 cyclist in the least but I used to bike up a decent-sized hill every day to go to UBC (equivalent to any hills on the peninsula, but maybe not some of the ones on the mainland side). You get used to it pretty quickly. Unless you're talking about mountains, the quality of the infrastructure matters more than the hilliness.

The bad weather angle for Halifax is exaggerated too. I've often thought it would be fun to give people a quiz about the climate there and compare it to Environment Canada statistics.

For example, how many paralyzing snowstorms of 25 cm or greater does Halifax get during an average year? 1? 5? 10?



The weather's better here for biking on the West Coast but most of the cities are as hilly or hillier. Other parts of the continent are generally either colder in winter, too hot in summer, or both. There are a few cities that have the perfect cyclist setup but, in the scheme of things, Halifax is okay most of the time, and there is a benefit to having cycling infrastructure even if it's not heavily used every day.
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  #460  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2015, 1:59 AM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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I don't know about "G" to be honest.

Yes, there are lots of hills in Halifax, but it is possible to plan out routes that are less hilly, and biking up and down hills is not the end of the world anyway. I'm not a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 cyclist in the least but I used to bike up a decent-sized hill every day to go to UBC (equivalent to any hills on the peninsula, but maybe not some of the ones on the mainland side). You get used to it pretty quickly. Unless you're talking about mountains, the quality of the infrastructure matters more than the hilliness.

The bad weather angle for Halifax is exaggerated too. I've often thought it would be fun to give people a quiz about the climate there and compare it to Environment Canada statistics.

For example, how many paralyzing snowstorms of 25 cm or greater does Halifax get during an average year? 1? 5? 10?



The weather's better here for biking on the West Coast but most of the cities are as hilly or hillier. Other parts of the continent are generally either colder in winter, too hot in summer, or both. There are a few cities that have the perfect cyclist setup but, in the scheme of things, Halifax is okay most of the time, and there is a benefit to having cycling infrastructure even if it's not heavily used every day.

Nonsense, my friend.

All one needs to do is look around here. From around this time of year until April you only see the occasional cycling zealot actually out in the weather. The streets are usually empty of cyclists for 5-6 months here. The poor job of HRM snow clearing that results in snow/ice extending 4-6 feet out from the curbs makes it generally impossible anyway. But one suspects that if they can't dress like Lance Armstrong, most HRM cyclists don't want to ride.
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