DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[Riverfront Park]

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback on The Coloradan. Some really good ideas. Glad people like the color, generally. Also, like some of the thought around lightening up parts, accentuating the verticality and looking for ways to bring a little variety to the design. I will keep you posted as it evolves. Cheers.

[enjo13]

Park and Welton, but no retail?

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by Riverfront Park

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback on The Coloradan. Some really good ideas. Glad people like the color, generally. Also, like some of the thought around lightening up parts, accentuating the verticality and looking for ways to bring a little variety to the design. I will keep you posted as it evolves. Cheers.

I am amazed by your humility in that you even dignify people a response. That really speaks to your investment in the community, and your firm's quest for excellence. Kudos to you, sir!

[corey]

I LOVE all of the retail at the Market Street Station! LoDo has tons of restaurants and bars, but little retail (none clustered together). I wanted a public market incorporated into the design for this site, but with the right mix of food places and retail it can have the same atmosphere. The sites location between Larimer Square and Union Station makes it ideal for a retail node and it makes LoDo more walkable. People can now spend an entire day in this part of downtown. I also like that more residential is being added to this area.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Much, much better! I wasn't a fan of the angled walls of the lower floors. When you say, SE corner of Park and Welton, do you mean to the south of the intersection? Would this building take up the whole half block between 22nd and Park Ave W?

Also, does anyone know what's going up at E 18th Ave. and Gaylord St. (NW corner)? They cleared the lot closest to the intersection over the summer and the building next door is barred and fenced off but, I haven't seen a lot of movement in a while.

I think we consider the named streets running N-S on this forum, isn't that the general consensus? Yes, its the entire half block from 22nd and Park, on the south side of Welton. There is a little 1-story building in the middle of the block that will be torn down.

And for your 18th and Gaylord Question

http://www.businessden.com/2015/09/09/city-park-west-set-for-new-batch-of-townhomes/

More townhomes are popping up in City Park West.

Scott Axelrod of MoonStar Investments has cleared a half-acre lot at 18th Avenue and Gaylord Street to build a nine-townhome development dubbed Gaylord Station. The $4.5 million project is at least the fourth Axelrod has added to City Park in recent years.

....

[DenverPoke]

Justin has an update on 999 17th (now 1776 Curtis apparently).

http://denverurbanreview.com/2015/11/1776-curtis-to-to-break-ground/

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by enjo13

Park and Welton, but no retail?

I doubt there is enough critical mass of population in that area right now to support retail to make the numbers pencil out. It would probably stay empty for a long while.

[corey]

I noticed that few stick built apartment buildings are currently being planned and there are many taller ones under construction or planned. It seems like Denver has turned the corner to larger projects. I never understood the dislike with stick build if it's a 6 story building. Who cares? I only care that the exterior finishing materials are higher quality, like brick, and not EIFS. It's been years since a mostly EIFS clad building has been built near downtown anyways, that I am aware of. I also find it funny that people refer to all horizontal apartment buildings as "commie blocks.". Compared to real Soviet housing projects there is zero comparison. The neighborhoods where these 200+ unit apartment buildings are being built have large parking lots and old warehouses to redevelop. It's not like they're tearing down large swathes of historic homes in established neighborhoods. It would hardly be cost effective to build many small apartment buildings in Ballpark, AS, Uptown, etc. If the developers did go small every one would complain the projects about that also.

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

I doubt there is enough critical mass of population in that area right now to support retail to make the numbers pencil out. It would probably stay empty for a long while.

Maybe? But what about in 10 years? It's not like you're going to rip out apartments to make room. Some percentage of retail should be mandatory on every single building built in the city. At a spot like Park/Welton especially.

[The Dirt]

Thanks, Engi!

[BG918]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

Justin has an update on 999 17th (now 1776 Curtis apparently).

http://denverurbanreview.com/2015/11/1776-curtis-to-to-break-ground/

Ha I was wondering when we would see something on this one. I walked by today and sure enough the lot is closed and GE Johnson trucks were parked there with a couple surveyors working. 29 stories, pretty nice!!!

[mhays]

Originally Posted by enjo13

Maybe? But what about in 10 years? It's not like you're going to rip out apartments to make room. Some percentage of retail should be mandatory on every single building built in the city. At a spot like Park/Welton especially.

....So you'd get high vacancy rates, and never any critical mass of retail.

Seattle requires retail on every avenue (prevailing direction) in a lot of neighborhoods. Lately some streets can do live/work (i.e. townhouses where you can hang a shingle) instead. But the result is that even pretty dense neighborhoods have half-assed retail everywhere instead of good retail on key streets. Some of the latter are being actively diminished because of this, made worse by every new apartment building.

The London model works well. High streets have retail, and everything else is townhouses and flats with the occasional corner store and pub. The exceptions tend to be regional destination districts (much of the West End for starters).

Manhattan's model also works well. Typical blocks are 850' long, so they have extremely few avenues. Retail is primarily focused on those avenues, again with the exception of destination districts.

The US averages over 40 sf of retail per person. A percentage of that is local small businesses, and the rest varies from destination districts, the supermarket, tourist spots, auto shops, and so on. If you figure 10 sf each and 1.5 people per unit, a 200-unit building might merit 3,000 sf of retail. Put five buildings like that together, and you merit 15,000 sf, or a 300' frontage 50' deep.

[The Dirt]

I'm skeptical that any retail will work in this part of AS. The aggressively homeless population (e.g. people that walk down the street yelling swear words, aggressive panhandlers, drunk/high people that take a shit in your doorway or walk out into the middle of the street, runaway hippie kids that demand money for hugs) outnumber everyone else 10 to 1 at the moment and it's gotten worse since legalization.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by mhays

....So you'd get high vacancy rates, and never any critical mass of retail.

Seattle requires retail on every avenue (prevailing direction) in a lot of neighborhoods. Lately some streets can do live/work (i.e. townhouses where you can hang a shingle) instead. But the result is that even pretty dense neighborhoods have half-assed retail everywhere instead of good retail on key streets. Some of the latter are being actively diminished because of this, made worse by every new apartment building.

The London model works well. High streets have retail, and everything else is townhouses and flats with the occasional corner store and pub. The exceptions tend to be regional destination districts (much of the West End for starters).

Manhattan's model also works well. Typical blocks are 850' long, so they have extremely few avenues. Retail is primarily focused on those avenues, again with the exception of destination districts.

The US averages over 40 sf of retail per person. A percentage of that is local small businesses, and the rest varies from destination districts, the supermarket, tourist spots, auto shops, and so on. If you figure 10 sf each and 1.5 people per unit, a 200-unit building might merit 3,000 sf of retail. Put five buildings like that together, and you merit 15,000 sf, or a 300' frontage 50' deep.

Welton St is essentially the high street for that part of town, and historically has been. It's where the shops, hotels, restaurants, venues, and bars for the african american community in Denver were centered.

North of there from about 26th to Downing along Welton it's pretty continuous retail, venues, bars, and restaurants on both sides of the street. It would be ideal if that could be extended to downtown as parking lots fill in.

California, Stout, Lawrence, Arapahoe, etc probably shouldn't have retail in that part of town.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

Justin has an update on 999 17th (now 1776 Curtis apparently).

http://denverurbanreview.com/2015/11/1776-curtis-to-to-break-ground/

That's all I wanted for Christmas/Hanukkah/Diwali.

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

I'm skeptical that any retail will work in this part of AS. The aggressively homeless population (e.g. people that walk down the street yelling swear words, aggressive panhandlers, drunk/high people that take a shit in your doorway or walk out into the middle of the street, runaway hippie kids that demand money for hugs) outnumber everyone else 10 to 1 at the moment and it's gotten worse since legalization.

Again, that is on a very narrow time horizon. I'm confident the world will look different in 2030, but we're apparently not really planning on it. After all I'm pretty sure people were making EXACTLY the same argument about lower Downtown in 1990.

[mhays]

Denver is building at densities that will support the "high street" model with quiet side streets. When you develop at Hong Kong densities (say at least 100,000 per square mile plus jobs and tourists) then retail might work on every street....though Hong Kong has plenty of streets without retail too.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by enjo13

Again, that is on a very narrow time horizon. I'm confident the world will look different in 2030, but we're apparently not really planning on it. After all I'm pretty sure people were making EXACTLY the same argument about lower Downtown in 1990.

So then that goes back to, do we force building owners to build in retail suites that may very well sit empty for the foreseeable future? Sure it could be done, but it might also limit redevelopment at the same time. We were fighting for so long just go get *any* redevelopment to happen in Arapahoe Sq., I don't think now is the time to stifle it with unnecessary regulations.

I haven't seen the preliminary new Arapahoe Square zoning code, but it might very well have regulations in there for the main streets (which I would guess Welton would be considered "main" for that area) to require a certain retain frontage.

[rml213]

http://www.businessden.com/2015/11/10/hotel-developer-buys-16th-st-mall-lot-for-10m/

Let's hope we see a badass hotel sprout up here.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by rml213

http://www.businessden.com/2015/11/10/hotel-developer-buys-16th-st-mall-lot-for-10m/

Let's hope we see a badass hotel sprout up here.

Wow.. when you combine this infill with the proposed Market St redevelopment, this corner is going to be bustling and will probably rival Larimer St and Union Station as the place to be in Denver.

Now if we could only get some traction on Block 162 and the two large parking lots at 18th and Market - then we'd be cooking with gas.