O-Train Line 2 [Stage 1 | Bayview to Greenboro] | In Service

[lrt's friend]

Route 107 from Greenboro to Carleton takes easily twice as much time as the train, which is why I find it funny that people complain that buses race past the train where they run in parallel. On that note Route 107 will be running November 21 and 22 for preventative maintenance.

I am the one who commented on the buses passing the O-Train on more than one occasion. My point was not that we should get rid of it, rather, why cannot the train run faster than the bus? Of course, we know why it is the case right now, but we need to find a way to do better. On the other hand, I have always supported the O-Train for what it has accomplished on that corridor. It is for this reason, that I wanted to see other existing rail lines with similar service.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Where have I heard the bolded part before?

What possible justification is there for doing that after building ridership over a 20 year period on the south east transitway?

We all know the market for the Trillium Line and Southeast Transitway are completely different.

I went the Red Blacks game today. How was I to get there if it weren't for the Southeast Transitway? Or do you want me to go back to using my car to get to Lansdowne?

I thought we were supposed to spending our money to actually 'improve' transit.



We have just gone through this exercise with additional double tracking. And what did it buy us? We were able to move from 15 minute frequency to the less than expected 12 minute frequency, with little hope of improving on that.

So we double track other little sections and throw on even more trains. If we continue to do that, there will be diminishing returns. More disjointed double tracks just means more places for trains to have to slow down to wait for a passing train. And we end up with longer trip times and not much of an improvement in frequency. Furthermore, the limits of the track are determined by the longest stretch of single track. If the difficult parts remain from the Dow's Lake tunnel to near Gladstone Avenue and the Rideau River Bridge, then our service cannot be improved significantly beyond what we have today.

Let's face it, if we want 5 minute frequency (the original proposal from a decade ago), you need full double tracking. If you want to deliver fast and reliable service, you need full double tracking absolutely.

And the more we tinker with this line, the more money will be wasted, and the more service closures will have to happen.

The time for double tracking should be sooner than later, otherwise costs will escalate as we need to take more and more costly actions in order to keep the line open as much as possible or to provide an adequate alternative.

Removing the SE Transitway south of Heron Road would only be possible if the Bank Street subway was built, and then that operated parallel at least to Greenboro Station (whether it moves to the Transitway ROW, remains on Bank or somewhere else). There is no way it can be removed from Heron Road to Hurdman, as it carries too much traffic even among those not going downtown (i.e. from the east end to the hospitals, to Baseline Road, to Carleton, to Confederation Heights, etc.).

Yes, the cost would be enormous, but a Bank Street subway does have a few huge advantages:

1) MASSIVE capacity increases for Lansdowne events like football games - no more having to run so many extra buses. Just run peak period-level train service.

2) A direct route from the south to downtown on the fastest route possible, resulting in huge time savings for commuters going downtown. South Keys to downtown could probably be done in under 15 minutes, which is unthinkable today.

3) Possible connection with a Montreal Road route for easy access between south and east, and could be done concurrently.

4) Protects the Trillium Line for an extension across the Ottawa River.

5) Rapid transit service maintained to Billings Bridge, and introduced to Centretown, Glebe and Old Ottawa South - much faster than the current 1 and 7.

[lrt's friend]

You clearly don't ride the Trillium Line often because the trains never follow a schedule, and there is no posted schedule at the stations, only a rough frequency guideline. The schedule shown on the website and in the data feeds is just a placeholder estimate, the trains operate as quickly as possible. As you mention this is an issue with the single track system, but only because of it's current poor design and failed upgrade. The old single track system had no issue maintaining schedule, and if it got too far behind would be able to regain 2-3 minutes per trip to get back on time.

It has to be concern that the schedule is nothing more than a suggestion. Thankfully, the service is relatively frequent. I am glad they got rid of 30 minute frequency that existed before the current upgrade during some time periods. It would have been very difficult with the schedule unreliability. But, as I mentioned, we need more certainty if you need to transfer to another bus route at the end of your trip. As it stands, an 8 minute differential is enough that you may not make your transfer.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Removing the SE Transitway south of Heron Road would only be possible if the Bank Street subway was built, and then that operated parallel at least to Greenboro Station (whether it moves to the Transitway ROW, remains on Bank or somewhere else). There is no way it can be removed from Heron Road to Hurdman, as it carries too much traffic even among those not going downtown (i.e. from the east end to the hospitals, to Baseline Road, to Carleton, to Confederation Heights, etc.).

Yes, the cost would be enormous, but a Bank Street subway does have a few huge advantages:

1) MASSIVE capacity increases for Lansdowne events like football games - no more having to run so many extra buses. Just run peak period-level train service.

2) A direct route from the south to downtown on the fastest route possible, resulting in huge time savings for commuters going downtown. South Keys to downtown could probably be done in under 15 minutes, which is unthinkable today.

3) Possible connection with a Montreal Road route for easy access between south and east, and could be done concurrently.

4) Protects the Trillium Line for an extension across the Ottawa River.

5) Rapid transit service maintained to Billings Bridge, and introduced to Centretown, Glebe and Old Ottawa South - much faster than the current 1 and 7.

With a plan for intensification along Bank Street from Billings Bridge to South Keys and no possibility of offering fast transit service on Bank Street due to increasing traffic congestion, the only way to go is underground. Of course, this is very long-term project.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Catenary

You clearly don't ride the Trillium Line often because the trains never follow a schedule, and there is no posted schedule at the stations, only a rough frequency guideline.

This grid of stations and times sure looks like a schedule to me:

http://www.octranspo1.com/routes?lang=en&date=20151109&rte=O-Train

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It has to be concern that the schedule is nothing more than a suggestion. Thankfully, the service is relatively frequent. I am glad they got rid of 30 minute frequency that existed before the current upgrade during some time periods. It would have been very difficult with the schedule unreliability. But, as I mentioned, we need more certainty if you need to transfer to another bus route at the end of your trip. As it stands, an 8 minute differential is enough that you may not make your transfer.

This concern is what prompted my original post, that the service upgrade was a failure. I have further concerns, which I have been meaning to ask about, when the service Sundays is running on the two train 15 minute frequency. Even at these times I have noticed the train not keeping schedule, which is completely unacceptable. 15 or 30 minute frequencies should be running on a schedule, as the old system did for ~14 years. I do wonder if we should be reducing service back to the 15 minute frequency every weeknight, as the improved service is such a small improvement for double the cost. This would cause staffing issues though, as the trains run with two shifts of staff per day.

Originally Posted by bradnixon

This grid of stations and times sure looks like a schedule to me:

http://www.octranspo1.com/routes?lang=en&date=20151109&rte=O-Train

If you read that entire post you'll see where I mention that the schedule online and in apps is merely a placeholder. The station shelters show the current operating procedure, and mention that trains run every 10-12 minutes. A reliable 12 minute service on schedule is probably obtainable, but would lead to trains waiting on the sidings for three or four minutes at times.

On another note, the relocated platform at Bayview is coming along, and looks like it will be pretty much the same as the old one. The large electrical infrastructure cabinets at the end of the current platform look like they will remain in place, and the new platform will be shorter as it only has to be as long as the spacing of the new train doors.

OCTranspo has also confirmed that all 6 trainsets are in the process of having their seating modified in the bicycle zone, making it more like the wheelchair zone at the opposite end. This work entails removal of one pair of transverse seats and replacement of the tip-up seating along the wall, with new dividers to stabilize wheelchairs and two additional passenger safety intercoms. I wondered why the trains weren't ordered as mirror images from the start, and speculate that this has to do with making the wheelchair and bicycle ends the same when the trains are turned around.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

With a proper re-think/rebuild of the line, Gladstone, Carling and Heron stations should be built beneath the bridges with entrances on both sides of the street. Full double tracking also means that the station intervals will no longer matter, and it would be nice to have a station at Somerset West as well to serve Chinatown and Hintonburg.

Some rough sketches the other year showed that this option was specifically rejected for Gladstone.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by silvergate

Has the city ever looked at extending the SE transitway north, perhaps onto bus lanes on the Vanier Pkwy? I'm not sure how much of a mess the Riverside-417 interchange would become then, but it would give quick access to residents north of the 417 to the Confederation Line, in an area that doesn't appear very well served currently

Not only not served well currently, service in that area has been cut back - sorry, "improved - in recent years, and there is nothing on any planning horizon for true rapid transit to be extended into the area, ever.

Rapid transit is for suburbs.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Removing the SE Transitway south of Heron Road would only be possible if the Bank Street subway was built,\...

3) Possible connection with a Montreal Road route for easy access between south and east, and could be done concurrently.

If we are building any more rapid transit underground, the Montreal-Rideau portion has to take precedence over the Bank Street portion. The near east end of town is the forgotten quarter when it comes to long-term - or any other kind - of transit planning. I guess no one votes or pays taxes in these neighbourhoods.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Some rough sketches the other year showed that this option was specifically rejected for Gladstone.

Putting stations under bridges is the best, but only makes sense where the bridge is long enough, or where the bridge has to be rebuilt. Gladstone is long enough for two tracks but not station platforms as well. Rebuilding the bridge would make it much more expensive. At Heron or Walkley where the bridge would have to be rebuilt for twin tracking, the additional cost to make it wide enough for station platforms as well would be worth it.

[JM1]

The Trillium line is a mistake. It will never handle a large number of passengers because the platforms are too short and the new trains only have two doors. The diesel engines are slow to accelerate. So rapid transit it will never be. Dwell times will remain long. And this is without considering the singletrack issue.

But perhaps the worst part of it is that by building this line, we have pretty much precluded a Bank Street subway. So we are stuck with this. A mistake.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JM1

The Trillium line is a mistake. It will never handle a large number of passengers because the platforms are too short and the new trains only have two doors. The diesel engines are slow to accelerate. So rapid transit it will never be. Dwell times will remain long. And this is without considering the singletrack issue.

But perhaps the worst part of it is that by building this line, we have pretty much precluded a Bank Street subway. So we are stuck with this. A mistake.

The same can be said about Carling and Montreal Road not getting rapid transit because of the Confederation Line. However, a Bank Street subway would never be able to serve Carleton University, which is a major transit destination.

We have what we have.

Subways are extraordinarily expensive and Ottawa's limited tax base can only fund so much. We should be thankful that we are getting a subway, no matter how short.

[eemy]

My impression of the Trillium Line is that it is basically a bus route that runs on rails.

Edit to add: I wonder if it is possible to outfit a city bus the same way they do those CN and CP pickup trucks. I would be tremendously amused to see a bus running down a rail line.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

My impression of the Trillium Line is that it is basically a bus route that runs on rails.

Edit to add: I wonder if it is possible to outfit a city bus the same way they do those CN and CP pickup trucks. I would be tremendously amused to see a bus running down a rail line.

Here you go, just put a maple leaf and an OC Transpo logo and Bob's your uncle


My impression of the Trillium Line is that it's a sketch on a scrap piece of paper that the city is trying to turn into a painting. No matter how much expensive oil paint is put on it, it's still on cheap paper. Time to invest in some proper canvas!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Here you go, just put a maple leaf and an OC Transpo logo and Bob's your uncle


My impression of the Trillium Line is that it's a sketch on a scrap piece of paper that the city is trying to turn into a painting. No matter how much expensive oil paint is put on it, it's still on cheap paper. Time to invest in some proper canvas!

When everything happened in December 2006, the main issue was the downtown surface link. That was a very fair criticism.

City Council was supposed to revisit the plan in order to make it better, however, they basically threw everything out leaving us with today's mess, that is just being patched together with baler twine so to speak.

All sorts of components of that original plan have been implemented piece meal without considering the overall benefits of the original plan. As a result, we are not getting the full benefits of those components or there have been major problems. Just consider the problems with the Vimy Bridge and the South Keys Pedestrian bridge and we have opened at least 3 park n ride lots that are on a rapid transit line that has not been built. We also converted the Barrhaven link to a busway at extra expense and we had to reconfigure roadways to accommodate it. I reflect back to the discussions at the time when the Barrhaven link from Woodroffe to Barrhaven Town Centre had a price tag of a mere $25 M. So have we spent more to get less?

The original price tag for everything was only $900 M (remember the criticism of that steep price tag) yet it looks like a bargain today. As we throw together an inadequate alternative, we continue to spend and spend and spend.

It is a sad reflection on how the city wasted money in 2006 and continues to waste money by taking half measures.

Here is an alternative low cost vehicle that could be used on the Trillium Line which will also give our students some exercise.



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6SDd4gZsGCo/UP...s1600/Indian_railways_hand_cart_1978.jpg

[ortelius]

I only use the Trillium line sometimes. When I do, I'm reminded of what a better experience trains are compared to buses or cars, in my opinion. If you haven't tried it, go check it out.
In general, I don't find myself waiting super long for the next train. But it's very far from ideal.
And those are nice trains too. It'd be nice to have a better system to go along with them.

[Catenary]

Work took place with the Trillium Line closed this weekend. The 107 provides a reasonable service on weekends when there isn't traffic, but the lack of good signage hurts it a bit. Finding the 107 stops at Carling and Confederation can be a bit tricky to find.

At Bayview on Saturday, the existing shelters were moved to the new platform, which will begin operation Nov. 29th. On Sunday, temporary shelters were put up at the old platform, which seems like a waste as it will only be 7 days, and there's almost always a train at the platform anyways.

The pile of waste that had been cleaned out of the ditches over the fall was removed from Bayview, and work appeared to take place on the switches and switch heaters at Carleton.

[lrt's friend]

Returning from the Red Blacks game, at Greenboro, they had what at first glance was police tape across the entrance to the Trillium Line. All seemed like a pretty rinky-dink way of handling service interruptions.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Returning from the Red Blacks game, at Greenboro, they had what at first glance was police tape across the entrance to the Trillium Line. All seemed like a pretty rinky-dink way of handling service interruptions.

There is a permanent sign mounted at each station that can be changed to indicate service status, but people walk right by it even though it said closed today. Without something there, people just walk onto the platform and will wait for a train that isn't coming. I've thought about a chain or something, at each station, but I have a feeling people would just screw around with it. The solution will be faregates next year, though I have no idea if buses will be in the fare-paid area at Greenboro (they should be).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Returning from the Red Blacks game, at Greenboro, they had what at first glance was police tape across the entrance to the Trillium Line. All seemed like a pretty rinky-dink way of handling service interruptions.

Welcome to OC Transpo.

At Hurdman (?) the other weekend, I saw an informational sign that was hand-written in magic marker on one of those sandwich boards. In English only. Bad English. Which didn't provide adequate or clear information for its intended purpose.

And then a gust of wind knocked it over.