Canada's 'housing bubble' deemed close to bursting

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by Berklon

New study: Vancouver housing market fuelled by Chinese buyers



I'm shocked. Shocked!!

Let's see how long it takes for the Real Estate Defence Force to respond.

Or to call the entire study racist.

[st7860]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lizanne-foster/vancouver-real-estate-chinese-buyers_b_7978002.html
"I've been at times frustrated and at times disappointed at the tone of most media coverage about the rising cost of real estate in Vancouver. So much of what is being published is written with barely disguised racism. I wonder how people of Asian descent feel when they read the online discussions about the "Asian Invasion"?

Have we learned nothing from history? Is this 1907 all over again? Should we expect angry mobs soon?

Perhaps a philosophical perspective would be to see the rising price of real estate as a kind of karmic justice, a century after Canada's imposition of the Chinese Head Tax."

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Pinus

Or to call the entire study racist.

Yea, I'm not sure how anyone would even consider this racism since it does nothing to disparage a race of people. The facts are the facts - and that's what this discussion is about - facts. Bringing race into this derails the topic at hand.

Oh thank the Lord... he's BANNED! I hope it's permanent.
He's a troll with an obvious vested interest in real estate. He offers nothing substantial to the conversation and he is 100% biased - as much as anyone ever can be.
Good riddance. Hopefully forever.

[mistercorporate]

[dleung]

Originally Posted by whatnext

And just how exactly did you jump to the conclusion that I said all residents of Chinese extraction don't count as "working Canadians"?

Working Canadians are those who earn their income in Canada, pay Canadian income taxes and file a Canadian tax return.

Because you have said many times that you can "see" this foreign money on the streets of Vancouver. How can you tell it's not local money?

The city of Vancouver has over 40,000 SFH, the vast majority owned by your definition of "working Canadians"... of which ~100 West Side houses averaging $3M are bought by Chinese families over 6 months according to the study. Money laundering and tax evasion is an issue, and the government should tax this foreign money as much as possible to benefit the local economy... but if you think getting rid of those 200 households per year will bring the average house price from $3M to $500k, then those foreigners aren't even the 50th biggest factor keeping you from having a detached house in Point Grey

Race is not a factor here, and there some truth within all the histrionics, but it's clear that a few individuals here can only tolerate diversity in token, non-threatening doses

[milomilo]

Finally!

[dleung]

And let's be honest... "working Canadians" rarely refer to wealthy executives, doctors, entrepreneurs, lawyers and professors (who can actually afford to buy houses in central Vancouver). It's political speak designed to tug the heartstrings of unionized plumbers, teachers and bus drivers whom you feel should be able to afford those same things.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by dleung

And let's be honest... "working Canadians" rarely refer to wealthy executives, doctors, entrepreneurs, lawyers and professors (who can actually afford to buy houses in central Vancouver). It's political speak designed to tug the heartstrings of unionized plumbers, teachers and bus drivers whom you feel should be able to afford those same things.

Can they? Even earning $150,000 it's going to be hard to buy a $1m+ house.

[rousseau]

Fifteen years ago I returned to Canada with a wife, some savings, and no job prospects or ideas about how to earn money. We stayed with my parents in Hamilton at first, and then moved to an apartment in the city.

But for a very short time we played around with the fanciful notion of buying a house in Toronto. There was one in particular that we really took a liking to, a nice place on Dovercourt west of TB Park, I think it was, but we were titillated, scandalized and ultimately scared away by an asking price in the neighbourhood of $250,000.

Now, of course, a place like that would list for at least $1.3 million.

Sigh. It's painful to contemplate what might have been, but oh well. Who's got a crystal ball, anyway?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Fifteen years ago I returned to Canada with a wife, some savings, and no job prospects or ideas about how to earn money. We stayed with my parents in Hamilton at first, and then moved to an apartment in the city.

Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else (Liver & Onions?), but aren't you a professor of some kind?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dleung

And let's be honest... "working Canadians" rarely refer to wealthy executives, doctors, entrepreneurs, lawyers and professors (who can actually afford to buy houses in central Vancouver). It's political speak designed to tug the heartstrings of unionized plumbers, teachers and bus drivers whom you feel should be able to afford those same things.

There can't be a whole lot of these in Vancouver. The same study pointed out that the average income of a bachelor's degree holder in Vancouver is about $40,000 a year. Toronto is over $60,000 a year.

Even a $100,000 salary in Vancouver is way above average, and the median house in the city is up over $1,000,000 now. It's pretty dishonest to say that this is about plumbers buying mansions in Point Grey. The reality is that even on a doctor's salary a lot of townhouses in Burnaby (the ones next door to me are $680k) are not very affordable.

It's also clearly wrong to suggest that anything Vancouver is a "luxury" house and so has no impact on "normal" houses, which is something that is often stated by real estate agents and the like. Most of these houses, even the ones in Point Grey, are fairly run of the mill, and the money that is spent to acquire them recirculates in the housing market and drives up prices everywhere. People cash out in the West Side and move to East Van, Langley, or wherever. On top of this the semi-random injection of cash makes people expect huge returns and creates a very bubbly market. This is part of why there are dumps in New West going for $700k now. It's all hideously out of whack with just about any other city on the planet.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else (Liver & Onions?), but aren't you a professor of some kind?

Isn't that the notorious, peameal sandwhich obsessed Molson?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else (Liver & Onions?), but aren't you a professor of some kind?

No, that's not me. I live a financially precarious life as a freelance translator.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by someone123

There can't be a whole lot of these in Vancouver. The same study pointed out that the average income of a bachelor's degree holder in Vancouver is about $40,000 a year. Toronto is over $60,000 a year.

Even a $100,000 salary in Vancouver is way above average, and the median house in the city is up over $1,000,000 now. It's pretty dishonest to say that this is about plumbers buying mansions in Point Grey. The reality is that even on a doctor's salary a lot of townhouses in Burnaby (the ones next door to me are $680k) are not very affordable...

I'm not disputing that there's an affordability problem or even a bubble. There are numerous reasons for it, of which foreigners is probably #5 or #6 on the list. Just saying that some xenophobes are betraying their prejudices with their word choice and anecdotes.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by dleung

And let's be honest... "working Canadians" rarely refer to wealthy executives, doctors, entrepreneurs, lawyers and professors (who can actually afford to buy houses in central Vancouver). It's political speak designed to tug the heartstrings of unionized plumbers, teachers and bus drivers whom you feel should be able to afford those same things.

Ok. Where can a doctor with a 200k salary afford to buy a home? Because that qualifies you for roughly a $1 million dollar mortgage. You will not find a home in Vancouver for under a million that is not a tear down (requiring a $500k additional investment), that doctor will live a pretty modest life for the privilege, and by the way I think 95% of doctors can be replaced since their jobs are procedure oriented and as a result are overpaid (but that's another topic). Yes some locals are still buying houses, usually because they were already leveraged in the market and e just moving around, or helping their kids. It still happens, but less and less. I get this feeling you are out of touch with reality (no disrespect). I can tell you Killarney in east Vancouver is probably 90% mainland Chinese buyers right now, and very few are local's. Before you bring out the race card I have plenty of Chinese friends and co workers, people who live and work here obviously, hell I am a European Canadian refugee married to a South American East Asian immigrant so don't even bring out the xenophobic card.

The point here is that housing in Vancouver (and many other western cities) is being used as a vessel to move money out of China. Why? Because China imposes limits on how much money people can transfer out but they don't impose those same limits when a Chinese national is purchasing foreign property. That's why most of these houses are purchased with cash, yet miraculously end up being mortgaged right after, and often flipped repeatedly. This not only negatively effects locals, which should be obvious to you by now, but it also creates a bubble that puts our nations economy at risk. Because the status quo will not remain for ever, Chinas policies will change, Canadas policies will change, and sooner or later the money flowing into the market will stop or slow and the bubble will be exposed. Solution now, try to minimize the damage already done, stop the political correctness and get heavy handed and instill some confidence back in to Canadians that we can solve this problem and all come out of this better for it.

Now having said all this, are you people not impressed by the realism of bots that can be purchased created? Talking about st7180. Something to keep in mind when you are online, more and more manipulation going on. Just think what multi billion dollar intelligence agencies can do and corporations. A lesson to all from someone with a heavy IT background. :-)

[ssiguy]

This is not a racist issue and in fact not even really an ethnic one.

Most people of Chinese decent in Canada make excellent citizens and responsible neighbours and I would have to say that most are very proud of being Canadians and are hard at work contributing to society.

The key word there is CITIZENS both legally and by the spirit of the law. Most Chinese in Vancouver that I have talked to about the affordability crisis are absolutely livid about the house flipping, passport buying money launderers. Nearly all of those I have talked to think that these house flippers should be unceremoniously thrown out of the country and have their citizenship revoked.

These people of Chinese decent, unfortunately, often find themselves lopped together with the recent billionaire arrivals with whom they have nothing in common.

It may surprise some of you outside Vancouver to know that the traditional Chinese community is amongst the biggest supporters of halting the destruction of the city's heritage, building more social housing, and stopping this house flipping once and for all. They are amongst the strongest advocates of getting rid of these crooks.

These Chinese decent Canadians feel the economic pressure, poverty, and dislocation as much as anyone else but unfortunately they are often the ones who have to bare the brunt of the general population's growing fury over this organized crime system particularly because the house flippers themselves don't live in Canada, the kids go to private schools and are not allowed to socialize outside of their race and social class, and when confronted the real estate companies, Vancouver Sun, and politicians quickly whip out the racist accusations to get them to shut up.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This is not a racist issue and in fact not even really an ethnic one.

Most people of Chinese decent in Canada make excellent citizens and responsible neighbours and I would have to say that most are very proud of being Canadians and are hard at work contributing to society.

The key word there is CITIZENS both legally and by the spirit of the law. Most Chinese in Vancouver that I have talked to about the affordability crisis are absolutely livid about the house flipping, passport buying money launderers. Nearly all of those I have talked to think that these house flippers should be unceremoniously thrown out of the country and have their citizenship revoked.

These people of Chinese decent, unfortunately, often find themselves lopped together with the recent billionaire arrivals with whom they have nothing in common.

It may surprise some of you outside Vancouver to know that the traditional Chinese community is amongst the biggest supporters of halting the destruction of the city's heritage, building more social housing, and stopping this house flipping once and for all. They are amongst the strongest advocates of getting rid of these crooks.

These Chinese decent Canadians feel the economic pressure, poverty, and dislocation as much as anyone else but unfortunately they are often the ones who have to bare the brunt of the general population's growing fury over this organized crime system particularly because the house flippers themselves don't live in Canada, the kids go to private schools and are not allowed to socialize outside of their race and social class, and when confronted the real estate companies, Vancouver Sun, and politicians quickly whip out the racist accusations to get them to shut up.

This.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This is not a racist issue and in fact not even really an ethnic one.

Most people of Chinese decent in Canada make excellent citizens and responsible neighbours and I would have to say that most are very proud of being Canadians and are hard at work contributing to society.

The key word there is CITIZENS both legally and by the spirit of the law. Most Chinese in Vancouver that I have talked to about the affordability crisis are absolutely livid about the house flipping, passport buying money launderers. Nearly all of those I have talked to think that these house flippers should be unceremoniously thrown out of the country and have their citizenship revoked.

These people of Chinese decent, unfortunately, often find themselves lopped together with the recent billionaire arrivals with whom they have nothing in common.

It may surprise some of you outside Vancouver to know that the traditional Chinese community is amongst the biggest supporters of halting the destruction of the city's heritage, building more social housing, and stopping this house flipping once and for all. They are amongst the strongest advocates of getting rid of these crooks.

These Chinese decent Canadians feel the economic pressure, poverty, and dislocation as much as anyone else but unfortunately they are often the ones who have to bare the brunt of the general population's growing fury over this organized crime system particularly because the house flippers themselves don't live in Canada, the kids go to private schools and are not allowed to socialize outside of their race and social class, and when confronted the real estate companies, Vancouver Sun, and politicians quickly whip out the racist accusations to get them to shut up.

Indeed.

[Denscity]

Using average incomes we are only using one persons income when often it is a couple that is buying a house and therefore we should be adding the two incomes together when determining what is affordable?