Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

What I was trying to get across was that it we build LRT/ Commuter Rail I frastructure now, perhaps along really direct right of ways then in the future we have the foundations laid for a higher cpacity and more flexible rail system.

This goes back to the point I was making earlier, which routes do you propose for commuter rail? There are no suitable existing right of ways and except for the ALR everything in Metro Vancouver pretty much has various degrees of stuff on it. Building commuter rail that works in that situation will be incredibly expensive. LRT that can run on roads is still feasible...but note that is not commuter rail and it would be incredibly complex and expensive to combine some sort of limited stop service with local stop LRT service on a road right of way. Unfortunately because we don't have the right of ways it will be incredibly expensive to get decent commuter rail in Metro Vancouver. The one thing that may help the numbers pencil out is if we could piggy back on some sort of improvements in intercity rail for our commuter rail....I know fantasy thread stuff.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by nname

Now compare this travel time:

WCE from Waterfront to Maple Meadows (42km): 54-56min
SkyTrain from Waterfront to Langley (45km): 59min

I am always surprised how slow the WCE really is considering how few stops there are. The train must travel very slowly.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I am always surprised how slow the WCE really is considering how few stops there are. The train must travel very slowly.

It is on a line designed for freight. Acceleration and declaration take much longer than a system designed for passengers and the singling system is much more conservative as well.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I am always surprised how slow the WCE really is considering how few stops there are. The train must travel very slowly.

I've taken it once and was shocked at how slow it runs to at least Maple Meadows (which is where I Got off). I can compare it to GO Transit which reaches fairly high speeds between stations (assuming 80 - 100 km/h).

WCE is stuck dealing with CP while Metrolinx/GO has been snatching up rail right-of-ways or constructing their own parallel track so they have full control.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Rico

This goes back to the point I was making earlier, which routes do you propose for commuter rail? There are no suitable existing right of ways and except for the ALR everything in Metro Vancouver pretty much has various degrees of stuff on it. Building commuter rail that works in that situation will be incredibly expensive. LRT that can run on roads is still feasible...but note that is not commuter rail and it would be incredibly complex and expensive to combine some sort of limited stop service with local stop LRT service on a road right of way. Unfortunately because we don't have the right of ways it will be incredibly expensive to get decent commuter rail in Metro Vancouver. The one thing that may help the numbers pencil out is if we could piggy back on some sort of improvements in intercity rail for our commuter rail....I know fantasy thread stuff.

Probably getting into more fantasy, but here's my proposal for a Waterfront to Langley Commuter railway to largely parallel the Expo Line.

Would need tons of investment including new rail overpasses, rail realignment (twinning), a new Fraser River crossing:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zXmida2sUqAQ.kZACLY-FJsX4&usp=sharing

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

WCE is stuck dealing with CP while Metrolinx/GO has been snatching up rail right-of-ways or constructing their own parallel track so they have full control.

Just try building a parallel track along Burrard Inlet...

[twoNeurons]

I'm surprised no one has suggested or thought about running a commuter train along Marine Drive and perhaps up Arbutus. While it would require a new station, I'm sure Molson can be persuaded to part with their brewery at the foot of Burrard Bridge.

As a bonus, a new High Speed Rail Line running parallel to the #99 through Richmond to Seattle could terminate at the same place. A downtown south Station.

The Arbutus corridor is a vitally important piece of infrastructure that I don't ever want to see sold to the city. This artery has FAR more important uses from a provincial and regional level than a local bike path.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I'm surprised no one has suggested or thought about running a commuter train along Marine Drive and perhaps up Arbutus. While it would require a new station, I'm sure Molson can be persuaded to part with their brewery at the foot of Burrard Bridge.

I don't think you will see anything very high speed along the Arbutus route. It's not very large and has several key crossings to deal with. Realistically we're looking at a streetcar style system on this route. It can get going faster when it has the room, but will have a large number of community stops through the arbutus range. Then how does it cross false creek?

As a bonus, a new High Speed Rail Line running parallel to the #99 through Richmond to Seattle could terminate at the same place. A downtown south Station.

The Arbutus corridor is a vitally important piece of infrastructure that I don't ever want to see sold to the city. This artery has FAR more important uses from a provincial and regional level than a local bike path.

Sadly I haven't seen anything in the GMT replacement plans than plan for rail transit across the Fraser.

[nname]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I've taken it once and was shocked at how slow it runs to at least Maple Meadows (which is where I Got off). I can compare it to GO Transit which reaches fairly high speeds between stations (assuming 80 - 100 km/h).

West Coast Express have a top speed of 120km/h. But that's only achieved once the train run past Port Haney. The train cannot reach top speed in the Tri-Cities and Ridge Meadows due to close station spacing and river crossing. West of Port Moody, there is a slower speed limit along Barnet Inlet and the City of Vancouver.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sadly I haven't seen anything in the GMT replacement plans than plan for rail transit across the Fraser.

Open House display boards cite "future rapid transit"


http://engage.gov.bc.ca/masseytunnel/files/2012/11/GMT-Phase-2-Display-Boards.pdf

[ssiguy]

LRT and commuter rail can run on the same track as long as the line is electrified.

Alstom and Bombardier both now make streetcar/LRT that run of regular roads to serve the suburban areas and then merge onto the regular mainline tracks to get to the city cores or other long distance trips. They are dual-mode trains and have proved extremely popular and reliable in Germany and are now being used in the UK.

They provide new and more local service on existing roads and then take advantage of already existing rail infrastructure.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

LRT and commuter rail can run on the same track as long as the line is electrified.

Alstom and Bombardier both now make streetcar/LRT that run of regular roads to serve the suburban areas and then merge onto the regular mainline tracks to get to the city cores or other long distance trips. They are dual-mode trains and have proved extremely popular and reliable in Germany and are now being used in the UK.

They provide new and more local service on existing roads and then take advantage of already existing rail infrastructure.

Could you provide pictures of the lrt's that run on regular roads. And why can't dmu's run on freight lines? Why does it have to be electrified?

Edit - I presume you mean tram trains. You make it sound like they have road driving capabilities.

[nname]

Originally Posted by logan5

And why can't dmu's run on freight lines? Why does it have to be electrified?

Or run the LRT in diesel

I doubt CP or CN or any of the rail companies would ever allow anyone to electrify their track. They got no use of it, and it increase maintenance, impose height limit, etc. If we ever want to see an electrified commuter rail here, most likely TransLink have to build their own tracks.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Open House display boards cite "future rapid transit"

That's a very vague statement though, it doesn't even say rails. That statement could easily be interpreted as "bus lane". Didn't the new PMB replacement promise another deck for rails up until shortly before construction?

[jacobparry]

"Like the Evergreen line—originally slated as LRT but changed to SkyTrain at the province’s behest—the province or the feds could still throw a wrench in Surrey’s plans. “The vision could be impacted by higher powers, but we’re hopeful for light rail,” said Don Buchanan, city of Surrey transportation planner and Luymes’s colleague. SkyTrain “is not what we’re focused on or hoping for,” said Luymes. “The province tends to like that technology,” he said later, though in that case, the route and station location would remain the same.

Surrey’s choice for light rail boiled down to density, both present and future. “Light rail was the natural choice in terms of the type of development appropriate for Surrey and bang for our buck,” said Buchanan, adding that the technology is “much more neighbourhood friendly.” And light rail doesn’t necessarily sacrifice speed: the trains can go up to 70 kilometres per hour over the stretches of farmland.

Also off the books: rapid bus transit—buses that run on a dedicated lane between transit-style stations. While buses run on similar schedules and cost a lot less to build, they would not be able to meet demand. The bus route north along suburban King George Boulevard is already as busy at rush hour as the congested B-line in Vancouver."

http://www.bcbusiness.ca/manufacturing-t...k-light-rail-station-stops-by-early-2016

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jacobparry

"The bus route north along suburban King George Boulevard is already as busy at rush hour as the congested B-line in Vancouver."

Wow... what is this guy smoking?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by jacobparry

"Like the Evergreen line—originally slated as LRT but changed to SkyTrain at the province’s behest—the province or the feds could still throw a wrench in Surrey’s plans. “The vision could be impacted by higher powers, but we’re hopeful for light rail,” said Don Buchanan, city of Surrey transportation planner and Luymes’s colleague. SkyTrain “is not what we’re focused on or hoping for,” said Luymes. “The province tends to like that technology,” he said later, though in that case, the route and station location would remain the same.

Surrey’s choice for light rail boiled down to density, both present and future. “Light rail was the natural choice in terms of the type of development appropriate for Surrey and bang for our buck,” said Buchanan, adding that the technology is “much more neighbourhood friendly.” And light rail doesn’t necessarily sacrifice speed: the trains can go up to 70 kilometres per hour over the stretches of farmland.

Also off the books: rapid bus transit—buses that run on a dedicated lane between transit-style stations. While buses run on similar schedules and cost a lot less to build, they would
not be able to meet demand. The bus route north along suburban King George Boulevard is
already as busy at rush hour as the congested B-line in Vancouver."
http://www.bcbusiness.ca/manufacturing-t...k-light-rail-station-stops-by-early-2016

I really hope that is poor reporting and not that the transportation planner in Surrey has such a poor grasp of his job. Wow, just wow. Reading the linked article has a few other what planet is this coming from statements too.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

LRT and commuter rail can run on the same track as long as the line is electrified.

Alstom and Bombardier both now make streetcar/LRT that run of regular roads to serve the suburban areas and then merge onto the regular mainline tracks to get to the city cores or other long distance trips. They are dual-mode trains and have proved extremely popular and reliable in Germany and are now being used in the UK.

They provide new and more local service on existing roads and then take advantage of already existing rail infrastructure.

Tram/trains do not NEED to be electrified....but if you want to run both LRT and commuter rail on the same route you need passing sidings, so to get decent frequencies you would need enough sections with 3 tracks at stations...otherwise your express/commuter train is just stuck behind the local LRT. Picture that on 104th, King George or Fraser Hwy. In Vancouver the biggest problem is north of the Fraser, you can't run much service in the cut because it is at capacity with freight.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Probably getting into more fantasy, but here's my proposal for a Waterfront to Langley Commuter railway to largely parallel the Expo Line.

Would need tons of investment including new rail overpasses, rail realignment (twinning), a new Fraser River crossing:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zXmida2sUqAQ.kZACLY-FJsX4&usp=sharing

Be nice if it could work, but to get decent frequency twinning the cut may not be enough. My fantasy version would be a lower deck on a new Patello bridge and a tunnel straight over connecting to the cut past Burnaby lake...plus other tweeks since it is fantasy...

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't think you will see anything very high speed along the Arbutus route. It's not very large and has several key crossings to deal with. Realistically we're looking at a streetcar style system on this route. It can get going faster when it has the room, but will have a large number of community stops through the arbutus range. Then how does it cross false creek?

To be clear, a high-speed line would not run at high speed through the corridor until it got out of Vancouver proper into Richmond along the #99. This is common with a lot of systems, including London, UK. The Eurostar trains, when launched, were quite slow once they entered the city.

Even the Tokaido Shinkansen line in Japan, which runs on a completely separated elevated guideway, is limited to 110km/h within Tokyo.