YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Will YVR be in need of a third runway within the next five years?

Short answer: No, not in the next five years [2020].

Longer answer: we'll need one sometime in the first half of the next decade, and there are some key steps that need to be taken to maximize the capacity of the existing runways and defer an investment in a third parallel runway until then.

I quote from the current YVR Master Plan:

In 2007, 275,000 aircraft used the runways at YVR, either arriving or departing. [Aircraft movements for 2014 were 310,139] Current annual runway capacity at YVR is approximately 400,000 aircraft takeoffs and landings. Capacity could be increased to more than 450,000 takeoffs and landings by using each of the parallel runways simultaneously for arrivals and departures. This would require improvements to the taxiway system.

Projections indicate that by 2027, the airport will need to accommodate 484,000 takeoffs and landings annually. To accommodate this increase an additional runway will be required.

The 20-Year Master Plan airside system analysis was preceded by long-term development studies that suggested approximately 600,000 runway movements would take place by 2044, and that a new runway would be required to accommodate the projected activity.

[snip]

To realize the full capacity potential of YVR’s existing runway system, the following options were identified and considered:
1. Build a North-South Taxiway to allow for simultaneous takeoffs and landings on both the North and South Runways.
2. Extend the North Runway by 600 m (2,000 ft) to enable long-range aircraft departures. This would improve efficiency, better balance departure demand between the parallel runways and reduce taxi distances.
3. Implement peak-hour demand management measures (such as pricing mechanisms, quotas, air traffic flow control) to shift arrivals and departures to off-peak periods and other airports.
4. In anticipation of future Transport Canada requirements for extended Runway End Safety Areas (RESA), extend the North and South runways accordingly. Anticipated extension range will be 150-300 m (500-1,000 ft).

Depending on the success of demand management programs and the rate of passenger growth, capacity enhancement initiatives will provide relief to 2023-4 at best. At that time, a new runway may be needed to create additional capacity.

http://www.yvr.ca/Libraries/Who_We_Are/yvr_masterplan.sflb.ashx

It's worth noting that the weight of aircraft on YVR runways is increasing at a greater rate than number of movements. This is due to the proportional increase in wide-bodies calling on the airport. As this trend is likely to continue, passenger throughput will increase at a greater rate than aircraft movements. Now, heavy wide-bodied aircraft produce more wake turbulence than lighter aircraft, which can lower the number of movements per hour on each runway, so part of the YVR air traffic control conundrum is balancing runway utilization for wide-bodied take-offs with smaller/lighter aircraft movements. I'm at the limit of my knowledge, but these considerations are factored into the modelling of runway capacity.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Perhaps that they have favourable orientation for prevailing winds?

That's my guess as well. And you are correct about the smoothness.

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Perhaps YVR will adopt a Munich-style solution of essentially putting the walkways on the roof? ... They could even potentially employ Siemens' super-fast moving walkway, like those recently installed in YYZ's Terminal 1.

You must be a engineer but you are righ. The super-fast walkway at YYZ is so cool and I hope to be able to ride it again on my upcoming transit for a flight to Chile.

Walkways are definitely more preferable than people movers. Eventhough normally the waiting times are under 5 minutes, it still gives you unnecessary stress over if you are going to make it. Or maybe it's just me.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

In 2007, 275,000 aircraft used the runways at YVR, either arriving or departing. Aircraft movements for 2014 were 310,139. Projections indicate that by 2027, the airport will need to accommodate 484,000 takeoffs and landings annually.

Wow, talk about estimated growth in only twenty years! Interesting numbers in the context that world's busiest airport Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International serves annually 95 million passengers (nearly five times more than YVR, over 260,000 passengers daily) and has 950,119 flights (only three times more).

How does one explain this, as I though traffic in Atlanta is more about small planes than here at YVR?

[Johnny Aussie]

Re: third runway.

YVR has three operational runways already. It's just the third one, the crosswind is seldom used these days.

In comparison MEL handles over 32 million pax a year and about 20,000 movements per month expecting about 240,000 annual movements. Also, these are mainly larger commercial aircraft (99.6% of all movements are > 7 tonnes). We survive on two runways that intersect. Surprisingly, delays are quite minimal. They seem to have a great system that allows both runways to be used simultaneously. However, delays are becoming more noticeable due to the rapid growth MEL has seen in the last few years. When the winds are so strong that they are really restricted to the north south runway only, significant delays add up.

A third parallel runway @ MEL is in the planning stages and is expected to be operational by 2020-2022. Thinking well ahead before delays become more severe.

[Denscity]

I'll take a loss like the replacement daily A-380 all day long!! First world problems! Still stoked about that and will definitely be using it!

[Klazu]

I have never understood the design with intersecting runways. I understand the idea with different windows, but it seems like a disaster waiting to happen when things are busy.

[Klazu]

Question: I need to visit YVR for few hours tomorrow and I was wondering if I could park my car at McArthur Glenn and ride the Skytrain for free? I wouldn't want to pay for parking, but I will be with a car...

[nname]

Unless the runways are parallel, the flight path is going to intersect somewhere? Its probably safer to intersect on the ground than somewhere mid-air, IMO..

[Gordon]

I would expect that the final phas ot West Chevron will be next because some of the Pre-Load has already being done, and once those 6 gates are in ooeration that the d\\E swing gates would be primarily trans boder4 or 5 mmre gates would serve alot more traffic

any idea if there are plans to improve the Trans boarder c Turbo prop gates

[casper]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I have never understood the design with intersecting runways. I understand the idea with different windows, but it seems like a disaster waiting to happen when things are busy.

I think it goes back to the days when the airport was serving smaller aircraft that were more sensitive to wind. Many airports that were build during the war were three runways that form a diamond.

Today YVR is handling significantly higher volumes of flights and significantly bigger aircraft than when those runways were first built.

[Johnny Aussie]

According to this news release.

YVR to PVG will upgauge to a 777 next summer. It's unclear if it will be a 77W or a 77L.

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=933

[Hot Rod]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Right you are!

Here it is in alphabetical order just because that's easier.

1 Aeromexico
2 Air China
3 Air France
4 Air New Zealand
5 ANA
6 British Airways
7 Cathay Pacific
8 China Airlines
9 China Eastern
10 China Southern
11 Condor*
12 Edelweiss*
13 Eva Air
14 Hainan Airlines
15 Iceland Air*
16 Japan Airlines
17 KLM
18 Korean Airlines
19 Lufthansa
20 Philippine Airlines
21 Qantas*
22 Sichuan Airlines
23 Xiamen Airlines

Hey lefty. Missing China Airlines (to TPE). So that brings us to 24.

Also, we don't have every major city yet until we get Chongqing. I suspect we will get them in 2017 when their massive new T3 opens; the routing likely being CKG-NKG-YVR on China Southern or Eastern, giving us Chingqing AND Nanjing. Once this is finalized and announced, then we can say Vancouver has direct to All major cities in China, the only airport in NA to do so.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

Hey lefty. Missing China Airlines (to TPE). So that brings us to 24.

Also, we don't have every major city yet until we get Chongqing. I suspect we will get them in 2017 when their massive new T3 opens; the routing likely being CKG-NKG-YVR on China Southern or Eastern, giving us Chingqing AND Nanjing. Once this is finalized and announced, then we can say Vancouver has direct to All major cities in China, the only airport in NA to do so.

CI is there at #8

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Looks like next summer Air Canada will be de-rouging LAX and SFO.

Right now the scheds are showing mainline on the following:

YVR-LAX 5 daily 320s
YVR-SFO 4 daily 320s
YYC-LAX 2 daily 320s

ANC and LAS are still showing as rouge flights.

ANC and LAS will be "rerouged" in short order. As you know from reading the YYC aiport form, my post from a few days ago stated that AC is closing the A319 rouge base at YVR and all pilots are transferring back to mainline flying. Expect about 8 rouge 319s to transfer to mainline for both exterior and interior.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Cage

ANC and LAS will be "rerouged" in short order. As you know from reading the YYC aiport form, my post from a few days ago stated that AC is closing the A319 rouge base at YVR and all pilots are transferring back to mainline flying. Expect about 8 rouge 319s to transfer to mainline for both exterior and interior.

I'm sure you meant de-rouged

I reckon all these terms can be added to the Webster's dictionary.

[Hot Rod]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

CI is there at #8

Oooop, you're right JA.

Sorry guys, my eyes got lost with so many 'China' airlines in our list . Great "problem" for us to have!!!!

QQ, how should we list Air Transat? They also serve a significant amt of traffic and are on the billboards at curbside iirc. What do you guys think, just so our list is accurate?

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

QQ, how should we list Air Transat? They also serve a significant amt of traffic and are on the billboards at curbside iirc. What do you guys think, just so our list is accurate?

Air Transat has been included in the intercontinental chart a couple of pages back under the No Alliance category.

As for the above list, that is the list of overseas based carriers, so Air Transat is not included as it is based in Canada.

[Johnny Aussie]

So with the latest developments over the last few days.

Here is a brief summary of intercontinental destinations by equipment for next summer.

As AC is in the process of reconfiguring their 777 fleet I am taking a best case stab at the 777 allocation. And based on the information presented in the press release about relaunching YYZ-ICN.

77W - the "original" 777-300ER config 349 seats - now being reconfig to 400 seats.
77WHD - the High Density 777-300ER being reconfig from 458 seats to 450 seats.
77L - the 777-200LR being reconfig from 270 to 300 seats


77WHD - 450 seats
LHR - Daily
HKG - Daily

77W - 400 seats
PEK - Daily
PVG - Daily (may be a 77L)

77L - 300 seats
SYD - Daily

789 - 298 seats
LHR - Daily

788 - 251 seats
NRT - Daily
ICN - Daily
BNE - 3 weekly

Sheesh! LHR gets more AC intercontinental flights (11 daily) than any other city in Canada except Toronto!

East to West:

YYT: 1 daily 319
YHZ: 1 daily 763
YUL: 1 daily 77W
YOW: 1 daily 763
YYZ: 4 daily 77W/77W/77W/763 (the 763 will most likely be a 788)
YYC: 1 daily 333 (should become a 789)
YVR: 2 daily 77W/789

[Klazu]

There are quite a few wide-bodies flying YYZ-YVR because their stop in YVR only being a layover on their way to Asia or Australia. Are there any such example on the east coast, i.e. flights departing from YVR, but making a layover in YYZ (or YUL) before continuing to Europe or Africa? Why is that?

[Johnny Aussie]

Air Canada's press release about the second daily YVR-LHR.

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=935

Also - the second flight will be on the larger 787-9 (298 seats) not the 787-8 as was uploaded in the scheds a couple of days ago. The AC booking engine now reflects the 787-9.

So with the HD 77W and the 787-9, that's 748 seats per day or 5,236 seats per week on AC on YVR-LHR. That's a lot of seats to fill.

Comparing 2014 (when Virgin Atlantic still flew to YVR) with 2016 though, 2016 will still have slightly fewer seats per week on YVR -LHR. However, if you compare the entire London market (including LGW) between 2014 and 2016... Quite a different story thanks to Air Transat increases and the launch of Westjet to LGW:

YVR-LHR 2014 8,621 seats on 24 flights per week BA-12 AC-7 VS-5
YVR-LHR 2016 8,519 seats on 21 flights per week AC-14 BA-7

YVR-LON 2014 10,346 seats on 29 flights per week BA-12 AC-7 VS-5 TS-5
YVR-LON 2016 12,506 seats on 34 flights per week AC-14 BA-7 TS-7 WS-6

Included in this press release is a little blurb about YVR-BNE being moved forward two weeks to June 1st as well.