The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Most people who take transit are still overwhelmingly middle to lower incomes including students, low income wage earners, seniors, and others on fixed incomes. An extra $12 per day, at a minimum, adds up quickly and makes too big a dent in their wallet to justify using GO.

This may not be as true as people think.

A recent study into transit users, specifically on the TTC, showed that riders tend to come from households with higher incomes.
GO has always attracted riders from higher income families, due to the downtown focus of the network.

This stat is also not a shocker. Similar studies in Australia found that transit commuters tend to come from higher income families. And that lower income workers tend to drive more (because lower income jobs are usually in industrial areas).

[Beedok]

So, I stumbled across this Montreal map which shows something called 'Axe de service métropolitains' and I'm not sure what those are. Anyone know?

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Looking at the map key, the lines labeled as the "Axe de service métropolitains" are mainly expressways, but not all expressways are labelled as this. I also see that anywhere that these lines occur, there are generally park and ride lots at the end. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that these are the AMT's express commuter buses, which would be the equivalent of GO buses in the Greater Golden Horseshoe..

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^ Looking at the map key, the lines labeled as the "Axe de service métropolitains" are mainly expressways, but not all expressways are labelled as this. I also see that anywhere that these lines occur, there are generally park and ride lots at the end. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that these are the AMT's express commuter buses, which would be the equivalent of GO buses in the Greater Golden Horseshoe..

Okay, that makes sense. I had googled stuff involving rail so I was thinking they had to be train lines of some sort.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by Beedok

So, I stumbled across this Montreal map which shows something called 'Axe de service métropolitains' and I'm not sure what those are. Anyone know?

That's the AMT map, commuter rail and intercity bus lines with park-and-ride lots.

[rousseau]

Was driving down Queen East in Leslieville tonight when traffic ground to a halt due, we eventually found out after about fifteen minutes of twiddling our thumbs, to a broken down streetcar. And five other streetcars were backed up behind the first one.

What happens when streetcars break down? It causes misery, I'm certain of that. But don't they have some kind of procedure to deal with it as quickly as possible?

I couldn't help but rack my brain after that, trying to think of solutions. Would it be feasible to tow the broken down car to the closest depot or detour? Or are these things too damn heavy for that?

[Nouvellecosse]

I doubt they'd be too heavy to tow since being on rails greatly lowers their friction. But I'd say the main strategy is the knowledge that streetcars are so much more reliable than buses, that with regular maintenance, breakdowns during revenue service would be very rare. But of course when you're pushing the limits of their useful lifespan, breakdowns are bound to get more frequent.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

No, I think GO ridership is low in Toronto because GO is downtown-focused (specifically Union station-focused), and most people who work downtown in Toronto tend to live either downtown or on an existing subway line.

GO's fares are entirely reasonable within Toronto. $6.55 to take a GO train from Rouge Hill to Union in 37 minutes sure beats paying $3 to sit on the 54 Lawrence bus for nearly an hour before transferring onto the RT and then again on the subway for a 20 station ride.

I appreciate your input and there certainly is a lot of convenience and comfort associated with GO which makes it more appealing but that doesn't mean that those people can all of a sudden find the extra money to take it. Whether the train runs once a day or once every 2 minutes is irrelevant if you still can't afford the fare.

You are also proceeding from the false assumption that most people live right near the rail station and are going no more than a couple blocks from Union station. The reality for most is quite different. Most take transit to get to their rail station and many take a further transit trip when arriving at Union such as students heading to U.T. Dundas Square/Eaton Centre, Yorkville, City Hall, downtown hospitals etc.

Due to this that $6.55 from Rouge Hill is not the fare but rather the EXTRA fare they have to pay for on top of their monthly Metropass. That means an extra {for commuting purposes only} 40 GO tickets for 4 weeks work, there and back. That's 40 X $6.55 so even with a discount that about an extra $240 a month on top of the $140 for the Metropass. For people on lower or fixed incomes that extra money they simply don't have.

This was the appeal of Smartracks and why many Torontonians embraced it and few are excited about GO RER..........it's fast transit that they could afford and just because GO increases frequency, electrifies, and runs all day and weekends doesn't mean their landlords will drop the rent, their boss will give them a raise, universities will cut tuition, social assistance will go up, or seniors CPP will magically increase just so they can take it.

[Innsertnamehere]

It's not 40x$6.55, the fare tapers out as it approaches 40. With Presto discount it's $5.90 as well. When totalled, it means a monthly fare of $210.50, with any additional trip beyond 40 being free.

If you are going to complain about high prices, do it properly.

Additionally, most people living in rouge hill aren't exactly poor anyway, it's full of large single family homes.

[eemy]

I think that I read somewhere that the streetcars have sufficient power to push or tow another streetcar. I've had that happen on a GO Train before (the Barrie Line); our train broke down, so they just coupled us onto the next train and we stopped twice at each station from thereon in so everyone could get off.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Due to this that $6.55 from Rouge Hill is not the fare but rather the EXTRA fare they have to pay for on top of their monthly Metropass. That means an extra {for commuting purposes only} 40 GO tickets for 4 weeks work, there and back. That's 40 X $6.55 so even with a discount that about an extra $240 a month on top of the $140 for the Metropass. For people on lower or fixed incomes that extra money they simply don't have.

As Insertnamehere has explained, the GO fare tops out after 40 rides, and there is a discount with PRESTO.

If it is an extra burden to transfer from GO to the TTC, it's not the fault of Metrolinx or GO. Every other transit system in the GTA except for the TTC enables you to transfer from GO to their system for 75 cents on PRESTO.

The TTC - which forces transferring riders to pay a full fare and has been dragging its feet on the PRESTO rollout - is probably more to blame for poor GO ridership within the City than GO is.

Finally, I will reiterate that $6.55 is a fair price to pay to travel 30 km in just over half an hour. For an extra $7 over the TTC fare, you can cut two hours off your commute every day. Even if I was on minimum wage, I would do this. But, then again, if I was on minimum wage I probably wouldn't commute 30 km, because jobs that pay minimum wage are easy to find in your own backyard.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I think that I read somewhere that the streetcars have sufficient power to push or tow another streetcar. I've had that happen on a GO Train before (the Barrie Line); our train broke down, so they just coupled us onto the next train and we stopped twice at each station from thereon in so everyone could get off.

This is true. Other streetcars of the same type can be used to tow dead ones back to the car house. It's done in the subway occasionally too though they might just tow the train to the nearest pocket track until end of service in that case.

• Video Link

[rbt]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If it is an extra burden to transfer from GO to the TTC, it's not the fault of Metrolinx or GO. Every other transit system in the GTA except for the TTC enables you to transfer from GO to their system for 75 cents on PRESTO.

You know this is entirely the fault of Metrolinx right? They pay every agency, except the TTC, for handling that last-mile portion of the trip.

[nephersir7]

Originally Posted by matt602

This is true. Other streetcars of the same type can be used to tow dead ones back to the car house. It's done in the subway occasionally too though they might just tow the train to the nearest pocket track until end of service in that case.

STM buses also have that capability

• Video Link

[Dwils01]

West Harbour GO Station | ?M | 3 FLOORS, still partially under construction.

Picture by me.

[ssiguy]

I never said the higher fare was GO or Metrolinx's fault but that changes nothing.

A transit rider doesn't care who's "fault" it is that they can't afford the fare just the fact they can't afford the fare. I think travelling 30km and having a fare of $6.55 is a bit high by not too much. Then again that doesn't tell the whole story. You are assuming that person is going straight to Union and lives within a couple blocks of a GO station which the vast majority don't.

As you know, rentals and real estate around rail and subway stations are more expensive due to people willing to pay the premium for the convenience of having the rail station nearby. Of course that means that most low income people live further from the station and hence need to get a Metropass and their GO fare.

The facts speak for themselves, GO has horrible ridership in Toronto yet the service in Toronto is the best in the GTAH with more trains, more lines, more stations, and a lot more people. So what's the aversion? Do Torontonians happen to love spending an extra couple hours commuting everyday? Maybe they like waiting in the rain and snow for a packed bus? Maybe they just enjoy the beautiful sight, sounds, and those oh so unique smells one discovers while travelling on the subway? Perhaps it's sitting on a non-moving streetcar due to an accident ahead? Upon reflection I think it's none of those things and that most would love to take GO if they could afford to.

[flipv]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Besides, it really isn't reasonable to make commuting long distances to outer suburbs (and beyond) too cheap imo. It encourages lower density settlement patterns which puts greater strain on infrastructure. It should be cheaper than driving and parking, but certainly not as cheap as taking shorter trips within the city.

You're right. GO RER + additional 416 stations + TTC integration (both physical and fare) would go about solving much of Toronto's transit deficit and congestion issues.

That by itself is more bang for the buck than ensuring 905ers get a seat on their way to Union.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I never said the higher fare was GO or Metrolinx's fault but that changes nothing.

A transit rider doesn't care who's "fault" it is that they can't afford the fare just the fact they can't afford the fare. I think travelling 30km and having a fare of $6.55 is a bit high by not too much. Then again that doesn't tell the whole story. You are assuming that person is going straight to Union and lives within a couple blocks of a GO station which the vast majority don't.

As you know, rentals and real estate around rail and subway stations are more expensive due to people willing to pay the premium for the convenience of having the rail station nearby. Of course that means that most low income people live further from the station and hence need to get a Metropass and their GO fare.

The facts speak for themselves, GO has horrible ridership in Toronto yet the service in Toronto is the best in the GTAH with more trains, more lines, more stations, and a lot more people. So what's the aversion? Do Torontonians happen to love spending an extra couple hours commuting everyday? Maybe they like waiting in the rain and snow for a packed bus? Maybe they just enjoy the beautiful sight, sounds, and those oh so unique smells one discovers while travelling on the subway? Perhaps it's sitting on a non-moving streetcar due to an accident ahead? Upon reflection I think it's none of those things and that most would love to take GO if they could afford to.

My guess remains that the trains are already most of the way to full by the time they reach Toronto. There's just not much room for more people to get on.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Beedok

My guess remains that the trains are already most of the way to full by the time they reach Toronto. There's just not much room for more people to get on.

This will be addressed when service frequency is substantially improved. But, there needs to be full integration with the TTC (including fares within Toronto itself) if Go RER is to serve as SmartTrack.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Was driving down Queen East in Leslieville tonight when traffic ground to a halt due, we eventually found out after about fifteen minutes of twiddling our thumbs, to a broken down streetcar. And five other streetcars were backed up behind the first one.

What happens when streetcars break down? It causes misery, I'm certain of that. But don't they have some kind of procedure to deal with it as quickly as possible?

I couldn't help but rack my brain after that, trying to think of solutions. Would it be feasible to tow the broken down car to the closest depot or detour? Or are these things too damn heavy for that?

Ì have been in two breakdowns and it took the driver a few minutes to couple two streetcars. Not sure why this wasn't done. Maybe the streetcar hit something or there is some ridiculous procedure in place over coupling a disabled streetcar this veteran driver just ignored. (Same driver both times)

Twice I had to transfer to replacement buses as accidents further up the line knocked out the power grid. Streetcars were left blocking rush hour traffic for hours until power was restored.