Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by logan5

The story is a little misleading. The 2500 units is for the Concord Lands. The potential for the viaduct lands is said to be 1000 units.

The 1000 still includes concord lands between the viaducts next to GM place (I think concord still owns it). That plot has had a vision to hold two towers for ever. Also there is still room to accommodate residential towers on city land between the viaducts east of Carrall(two towers and possibly more with some creativity) and residential developments at Main / Gore on city owned land.So I don't believe for one second a single extra unit will be obtained or built, only more expensive units. Also the viaducts take up virtually no space, the rest of the land bellow them can be turned over to the public as was planned in the 90's with parks markets tennis / basket ball course etc. basically park space.

So no the city is not recouping any money imo.

Also in the late 90's the viaducts were studied and were said to be seismically sound due to their design and had 60 years of life before requiring significant rehabilitation. So its interesting that since x people came in suddenly reality seemed to have done a 180.

And this is not even about some sort of ideological reasons, the city and residents are simply better with the viaducts in place at all levels including around them if they stay(which they will regardless once proper intervention comes in to play) and the city grows around them and incorporates them. Its infrastructure for ; sakes.

[Spork]

Still not a peep from Translink, eh?

[urbancanadian]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

In your opinion, traffic decrease in/out of downtown perhaps due to what? More people living and working downton, thereby inducing a reduction in commuter suburban traffic?
Living>< working in the same town centres (à la Vancouverism), and / or people commuting between town centres? Or a slowdown in some aspect in the CBD economy.
Better transit? .... Opinion, please? Thank you. I'm really interested, Red.

Total car traffic into downtown is lower. Overall traffic (incl. transit, cycling, walking) is way higher. Downtown has never been busier, and continues to grow in the number of workers, residents, shoppers, tourists, etc.

While the often-quoted line about car traffic declining is true (and has been quoted by city councils for years, spanning several councils of all parties), it's not like it's been cut in half. It's been very gradual. The rest is made up by huge growth in transit (trains/buses), bikes, and pedestrians from nearby communities, as well as lots of people who live/work downtown.

[nefc]

Here's the staff report going to council later this month: http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/2015-Staff-Report-Removal-of-the-Georgia-and-Dunsmuir-Viaducts.pdf

They have also provided some technical reports at the bottom of the Viaducts website (under Engineering Technical Studies): http://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/viaducts-study.aspx

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by nefc

Here's the staff report going to council later this month: http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/2015-Staff-Report-Removal-of-the-Georgia-and-Dunsmuir-Viaducts.pdf

They have also provided some technical reports at the bottom of the Viaducts website (under Engineering Technical Studies): http://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/viaducts-study.aspx

Thanks for posting. Page 34 lays out all the costs. I'm surprised how much is being spent on the parks portion, but I guess it's a big space.

Removing existing viaducts, creating new Georgia ramp, seismically upgrading the portion of Dunsmuir to remain and a new bike connection total only $73M of the project.

Edit: as a side note under the construction phasing it looks like they will somehow try to keep Griffiths way. Not sure how that will end up though.

[officedweller]

Yup Griffiths way is in the plans.

Originally Posted by officedweller

This is from the 800 Griffiths Way CD-1 Rezoning report to be approved by City Council this week - The second plan shows the Georgia intersection at Pacific. Traffic on the grand Pacific Blvd funnelled up to Georgia Street, but a last minute connection to Expo Bld is provided via Griffiths Way. And it looks like there's a bike lane on that 5% grade.

Anyone else think that the new Georgia Street extension will take up land that was supposed to be used for the Georgia Steps?

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20120612/documents/p5.pdf


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http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=174625&page=116

[city-dweller]

Originally Posted by whatnext

It's not just about time, idling cars produce unecessary emissions. When people say "its only an extra few minutes" multiply that by tens of thousands of vehicles per day. More than anything, this illustrates this isn't about being "green", its about car-hater optics and handing a big developer a nice gift.

I know I am going to hear back about this, but Idling cars produce less emissions than moving cars. If you create more infrastructure, i.e. more road space you attract more drivers emitting more emissions. So reductions that produce idling via congestion would reduce total emissions. Think about where those emissions come from -combustion.

[officedweller]

Here's a link to another webpage provided by Frances Bula
- it has a few more documents at the bottom, including a Technical Findings Presentation.

Why can't the City put everything in one place??

http://vancouver.ca/news-calendar/viaduct-technical-findings-october-6-2015.aspx

Stuff that I found interesting:

The Dunsmuir replacement bike path structure "will be integrated" with the podiums of the new condos in Area 6C.
That means the bike path will be on the south side of Pacific Blvd. and will link to the remaining part of the Dunmsuir Viaduct
near Rogers Arena (Costco elevator).


http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/2015-Staff-Report-Removal-of-the-Georgia-and-Dunsmuir-Viaducts.pdf

Here are the plans for Area 10C - the PavCo site at the SE corner of BC Place.

That's where the Georgia Steps would have been located.
The Staff Report notes that the underground parking for PavCo's future office/mixed use tower on Area 10C
will have to be built in conjunction with the Georgia St. Ramp, since the parking will be located UNDER the new ramp.

The Staff Report also states that in order to allow a smaller footprint for the tower - to open up plaza space -
the height of the Area 10C tower will be relaxed (raised), but only up to the applicable view cone.
I think that's the same height as the Rogers Arena West Building.

There's also a small commercial building between the new ramp and Griffiths Way.


http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/2015-Staff-Report-Removal-of-the-Georgia-and-Dunsmuir-Viaducts.pdf


http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/2015-Staff-Report-Removal-of-the-Georgia-and-Dunsmuir-Viaducts.pdf

Pic of the Georgia Ramp looking towards Science World from the Technical Findings Presentation.

I think the rendering starts at Citadel Parade (traffic light @ Spectrum condos).
I'm not sure how the grade separation between the existing sidewalk fronting the Spectrum townhouses
and the ramp dropping to Pacific Blvd. will look. Not sure if the "gap" will be blocked off or be an open gap.

On the BC Place side, the "gap" seems to be closed with staircases up or down to the BC Place concourse, as necessary.

Westbank's new tower over the Central Heating plant is off the pic to the lower right.

I could see the ramp being closed to traffic during arena and stadium exit periods.
There may be an opportunity to make this into a "Fan Zone" area (although the Spectrum townhouses would complain).


http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/Vancouver-viaducts-presentation-sept-1-2015.pdf

[a very long weekend]

neat plan, really hope that they get very active uses on all buildings down there.

[WarrenC12]

The Georgia Wharf idea is pretty cool.

When the city creates a new strata-based marina (Aquarius is the most recent one I can think of), who gets all of that sales revenue? Those are expensive strata lots that basically take very little to put together.

[officedweller]

I think the Marinaside one was developed and sold by Concord Pacific on a water lot lease. So whoever owns the water lot rights...

[WBC]

Now that we have almost all moved to the "acceptance" stage of dealing with this tragedy what happens to:

1) Dunsmuir - Does it become a two way street or does it stay one way street?

2) Stadium Station - Does anything change for the Stadium SkyTrain station? Will its platform be extended to connect with the Rogers Arena's side of the Expo Blvd thus avoiding the need to cross the street (such as during games, etc)? Does that section of Expo Blvd really still exist after the change? Or will the pedestrian connection be done above the station platform through Dunsmuir connector?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by jhausner

I don't travel downtown or from downtown that often but I'm curious as has been mentioned many "downtowners" head to HWY1 via Prior (viaduct). I tend to from downtown go down Nelson and across the Cambie then along 12th to get to HWY1.

Is viaduct + Prior faster in general? I just always felt the few times I used that route it seemed slower than ducking over the Cambie Bridge then going along 12th/Grandview.

So regionally speaking, I think it will turn out fine. If you work downtown I still find it a bit crazy that you don't take SkyTrain and drive but I'm sure there are perfectly valid reasons why that is so all the power to you.

Oh my god. You actually take Cambie to 12th? I hope it is in the middle of the night.

That is absolutely the worst way to go. 12th from Oak street to Highway 1 is probably the slowest road in all of Vancouver, and Cambie between the bridge and King Eddy is probably the 2nd slowest. It is absolutely horrible. Easily 15 minutes longer than involving the viaducts.

Taking the Viaducts to Main and turning left onto Terminal and taking 1st all the way is better than spending any time on 12th at rush hour. Viaducts -> Prior -> Clark -> 1st is a pretty good route too during rush hour while the parking restrictions are in on Prior (don't go that way just after 6pm though).

If you are taking the Cambie bridge heading to TCH, then take W. 2nd/Great Northern to Clark (from there take either 1st or 12th). So. Much. Better.

And there are a lot of valid reasons why people would drive instead of take Skytrain. Perhaps they don't live close enough to a station, so taking transit could easily take double the time as driving in rush hour. Some people also combine their commute with chores, like dropping off/picking up kids, so a car is useful. Some people also really don't like crowds. I love taking Skytrain, do it whenever I can, but there are times when even I get sick to my stomach at dealing with the crowds. I can't imagine what it is like for people who are even a tiny bit claustrophobic.

[Sprawl]

Even as a supporter of this project, it's somewhat bizarre that report doesn't mention the Skytrain guideway at all. Jurisdictional issues don't mean you can just pretend it doesn't exist, it's still a huge challenge for the planning of the area.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

Even as a supporter of this project, it's somewhat bizarre that report doesn't mention the Skytrain guideway at all. Jurisdictional issues don't mean you can just pretend it doesn't exist, it's still a huge challenge for the planning of the area.

AHaa!! See how they squeedled their way around that issue? By focussing everything attentionwise on the viaducts and the new "super road" they drew everyone's attention away from the Skytrain guideway.
And yes! It still has to be dealt with. Go figure that one out.

[AverageJoe]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Oh my god. You actually take Cambie to 12th? I hope it is in the middle of the night.

That is absolutely the worst way to go. 12th from Oak street to Highway 1 is probably the slowest road in all of Vancouver, and Cambie between the bridge and King Eddy is probably the 2nd slowest. It is absolutely horrible. Easily 15 minutes longer than involving the viaducts.

Totally agree with BCPhil on the route to the Trans-Canada from downtown.
From downtown, another faster route than 12th Ave route would be Powell -> Dundas -> McGill -> Hwy 1.

I make use of the viaducts to get around the clogged traffic on Quebec, Terminal, and Main. The amount of idling traffic from the traffic lights between Abbott/Pacific and Main/Terminal can be horrendous. They seem to be timed so you stop at every single one.

Most times from International Village, I squirm may way up through the Costco ramp underneath Stadium Station to get to Beatty and onto the Georgia Viaduct to get out. There are no surface streets that can beat the viaduct if you're in a hurry.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by AverageJoe

Totally agree with BCPhil on the route to the Trans-Canada from downtown.
From downtown, another faster route than 12th Ave route would be Powell -> Dundas -> McGill -> Hwy 1.

This has been the best way to access HWY 1 since as long as I can remember. The new Powell overpass makes it even better. Next step would be to eliminate street parking on Powell.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

This has been the best way to access HWY 1 since as long as I can remember. The new Powell overpass makes it even better. Next step would be to eliminate street parking on Powell.

It won't be, once the viaducts come down.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

neat plan, really hope that they get very active uses on all buildings down there.

Neat plan when they can conveniently make the skytrain guideway "disappear" and only make close-up sketches of the area near BC Place Stadium that shows the new wharf and sparking waters.

If they were to make a sketch of the area between Main and Rogers Arena, it would be a boring residential enclave that is remisniscent of Collingwood/Joyce area, with the skytrain passing through above. Gone would be the heritage uniqueness of the downtown district with the viaducts, forever.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

If they were to make a sketch of the area between Main and Rogers Arena, it would be a boring residential enclave that is remisniscent of Collingwood/Joyce area, with the skytrain passing through above. Gone would be the heritage uniqueness of the downtown district with the viaducts, forever.

You can argue that development could exist around the current viaducts, but you can't say there's a unique heritage there today: