Canada Election 2015

[JHikka]

It's always amusing when the NDP/Liberals are doing well in the polls the media will discuss how they're doing well...but as soon as the Conservatives start leading in polls the media begins questioning the usefulness and reliability of polls. Power & Politics had an extended segment on how trustworthy polls can be....we weren't having these discussions a month ago.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Really? I advocate things on the opposite end of the spectrum akin to nuking the Middle East? I doggedly defend only one political party even when it's to my detriment (Liberals tax bracket benefitting MIGS for example). I profess xenophobic views and constantly create straw man arguments? I borderline sound like that crazy old man at the conservative rally in Missassauga?

Edit: iirc you once described MIGS' dogged defence of the oilsands as him basically saying you could drink oil without harm. I'm not vegan, I drive a car and I certainly don't make claims this ridiculous. Frankly I'm horrified to be compared with someone so brainlessly partisan. I think of myself as being logical enough to be at least open to the possibility of there one day being a Conservative party that isn't insane that I could vote for. In 2006 the Liberals needed to go. Maybe in another 20 years it will be a similar scenario.

I'd say you're as relentlessly and staunchly anti-CPC as he is pro-CPC, yes. If you could look at you two trading jabs from an external point of view, like we do, maybe you wouldn't be that surprised... the level of discourse isn't really different.

I mean, I'm not saying you can't do better, but in these exchanges, I don't really see it No offense.

[SignalHillHiker]

If they get back in... I just don't know how to keep up enough enthusiasm to follow federal politics and vote in a federal election. It's no wonder we've slipped below 50% turnout here for federal ones.

And I don't think I'm being excited as usual, I'm very calm, disappointed, discouraged. There's no point if after everything not only the Cons generally but Harper in particular can still win. What more could they possibly do?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

My parents bought a property to rent in Quebec and found out just how terrible it is in that province for landlords. Almost all the power goes to the tenants and they can hold a landlord hostage. Like you said though, that's a provincial issue. No need for jail time though if it simply was changed to be closer to the rules we have in AB.

It is indeed absolutely horrible. There's a reason why all my latest real estate purchases have been in FL and TX. Now that I have some experience with tenants in both these states I am now wondering how I could stand it here for that long! I might be looking at selling everything in Quebec at some point...

Based on what I read on this forum though, I think Ontario's barely better.

My uncle who went to work on pipelines in AB reported that over there, deposits just aren't given back. He swore he'd get his back... the apt was totally pristine when he was about to leave; he ultimately managed to get half of it by threatening he'd do as precisely as possible an amount of damage worth the full deposit to the apt, so they both cut it in half -- he gets at least half of it back, and the landlord also gets ahead by stealing half the deposit, instead of getting all of it but having to spend it to fix the damage.

Not sure that's normal, but this uncle (as owner of a couple revenue properties here in Quebec) found the landlord/tenant dynamic quite different over there. If that's what your parents were used to, no wonder they were pulling their hair out!

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The vast majority of Canadians do not want the Conservatives in power
The vast majority of Canadians do not want the Liberals in power
The vast majority of Canadians do not want the NDP in power

All of these statements are equally true. I bet there are more Liberal supporters than you think that would prefer the Cons to the NDP.

Equally true? Not even close. We don't need to "bet" when an actual survey was done asking people. The LPC and NDP both have extremely high 2nd choice numbers and the CPC does not.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Equally true? Not even close. We don't need to "bet" when an actual survey was done asking people. The LPC and NDP both have extremely high 2nd choice numbers and the CPC does not.

2nd choice isn't how FPTP works unfortunately.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

If they get back in... I just don't know how to keep up enough enthusiasm to follow federal politics and vote in a federal election. It's no wonder we've slipped below 50% turnout here for federal ones.

And I don't think I'm being excited as usual, I'm very calm, disappointed, discouraged. There's no point if after everything not only the Cons generally but Harper in particular can still win. What more could they possibly do?

Do you honestly think the Liberal Party and Justin Trudeau are new, competent, exciting, refreshing, etc.? (Think Obama in '08.)

Same question for the NDP and Mulcair. Do you?

Quite frankly, I wouldn't find it abnormal for the Tories to get another minority at least. The alternatives are far from problem-free themselves.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'd say you're as relentlessly and staunchly anti-CPC as he is pro-CPC, yes. If you could look at you two trading jabs from an external point of view, like we do, maybe you wouldn't be that surprised... the level of discourse isn't really different.

I mean, I'm not saying you can't do better, but in these exchanges, I don't really see it No offense.

You're right in that I loathe Stephen Harper and the current CPC probably as much as MIGS wants to bone them. I'll agree with that. However, I consider myself centre left with no political party as my only option.

I despise Harper more than the average politician I don't agree with because a) He's changing the direction of the country to one that's much more American b) I voted for him once in 2006 on his platform of cleaning up Parliament and making it more transparent *ha! c) He's absolutely despicable as a person. He's a cold, heartless dictator who is all ideology all the time. d) He is eroding the power of citizens and replacing it with corporate interests

I could go on and on but those are probably the top reasons why I hate him so much. I'd still like to think that my arguments from time to time hold a little more water than MIGS' mindless cheerleading though (memes aside).

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by JHikka

2nd choice isn't how FPTP works unfortunately.

We're talking about how the will of the people would be expressed if there was only one (so called) left leaning party instead of two, in which case all the people who have one party as their first choice and the other as their second choice would become a single voting block.

[MonctonRad]

Headline from CBC.ca

Poll Tracker: Are Stephen Harper's Conservatives inching toward victory?
Conservatives occupy best position they've been in since the campaign began
By Éric Grenier, for CBC News
Posted: Oct 01, 2015 3:31 PM ET Last Updated: Oct 01, 2015 3:31 PM ET

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-grenier-polls-oct1-1.3252148?cmp=rss

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

We're talking about how the will of the people would be expressed if there was only one (so called) left leaning party instead of two, in which case all the people who have one party as their first choice and the other as their second choice would become a single voting block.

Right, but that's making a lot of assumptions. The political environment of Canada would be entirely different if we had an American-style political race with only two clear-cut parties to choose from.

We can always do these pie-in-the-sky scenarios of combining NDP and Liberal support to defeat the evil, tyrannical Conservatives but I don't quite think it's as clear-cut as that.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by lio45

Do you honestly think the Liberal Party and Justin Trudeau are new, competent, exciting, refreshing, etc.? (Think Obama in '08.)

Same question for the NDP and Mulcair. Do you?

Quite frankly, I wouldn't find it abnormal for the Tories to get another minority at least. The alternatives are far from problem-free themselves.

Even the pre-Harper status quo would be considerable progress. To my preferences, he's been unforgivable. We have fisheries science that's gone now. Destroyed. Records back to the 1800s. Contempt of Parliament. First time ever. Those two things alone are just unforgivable to me. And so much more.

The Libs and NDP will at least avoid destroying science.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Even the pre-Harper status quo would be considerable progress.

Elaboration?

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

To my preferences, he's been unforgivable.

How so?

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

We have fisheries science that's gone now. Destroyed. Records back to the 1800s.

Are you sure someone wanted them? Hard to imagine they wouldn't be offered first.

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Contempt of Parliament. First time ever.

First time ever for what? Previous governments never contempted Parliament? Chretien never contempted government?

[lio45]

The science funding cuts are one of my biggest beefs with the CPC (I've heard plenty about those firsthand, many in my closest circles of friends are in pure research) and would likely be among my top reasons to not vote for them, but I have even better reasons to avoid voting for the other big two, so... out of the big three, they're the "lesser evil" IMO and if I'm voting for one of the three majors it will be for them. The Greens and BQ and especially Libertarians (can a candidate still show up if there wasn't one recently? I'd assume it's too late) could get my vote though.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by lio45

Do you honestly think the Liberal Party and Justin Trudeau are new, competent, exciting, refreshing, etc.? (Think Obama in '08.)

Same question for the NDP and Mulcair. Do you?

Quite frankly, I wouldn't find it abnormal for the Tories to get another minority at least. The alternatives are far from problem-free themselves.

Obama was the best thing to happen to US politics since the Clinton days. He's totally changed that country for the better. Socially brought them into the 21st century.

This whole nonsense spitted from Conservatives and Republicans about how horrible Obama was is totally 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Since he was elected, the stock market has done very well, he survived the US through the massive economic crisis Bush handed to him, house prices are rising, the unemployment rate is at 5%, the economy is rebounding, hundreds of thousands of new jobs every month are filled, he's legalized gay marriage nationwide, ended wars, improved healthcare, and is an overall cool fun guy who engages with media and hollywood. If that's a dud President then I give up on rational of mankind. I want that in Canada.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

The Libs and NDP will at least avoid destroying science.

High taxation levels are strongly correlated with brain drain, a well-documented trend, so the "destruction" might be indirect, but it's nonetheless there...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by travis3000

Obama was the best thing to happen to US politics since the Clinton days. He's totally changed that country for the better. Socially brought them into the 21st century.

This whole nonsense spitted from Conservatives and Republicans about how horrible Obama was is totally 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Since he was elected, the stock market has done very well, he survived the US through the massive economic crisis Bush handed to him, house prices are rising, the unemployment rate is at 5%, the economy is rebounding, hundreds of thousands of new jobs every month are filled, he's legalized gay marriage nationwide, ended wars, improved healthcare, and is an overall cool fun guy who engages with media and hollywood. If that's a dud President then I give up on rational of mankind. I want that in Canada.

Not sure he deserves so much of the credit for the rebounding economy -- same generally applies up here as well with whoever is PM, BTW -- but yeah, I agree, he hasn't been a dud. (Who said he was? I said we currently don't have any candidate of that caliber.)

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by suburbia

I don't know how many of you have had a chance to listen to the most recent ICC LaFontaine-Baldwin Lecture. Calgary's Mayor Naheed Nenshi delivered an exceptional speech about the Canada we want. While I thought it couldn't get any better, last evening's CBC Ideas podcast had snips of the lecture with comments from John R Saul, and then an interview with Nenshi. This is really a must listen item for anyone serious about participating the elections.

Tuesday September 29, 2015
Doing the Right Thing
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/doing-the-right-thing-1.3247353

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I heard him. He's a very powerful speaker and seems like a genuine person who believes what he says. I wonder if he has any federal ambitions?

I listened to the Ideas podcast tonight and I agree it was an amazing speech. Not so much because anything he said was that revolutionary, but because of how he said it. Many progressives think of progressive messages as being like proverbial vegetables. They might not taste as good as the simplistic, emotion charged junk food messages often used to rally support around conservative or reactionary positions, but one should have enough sense to consume intelligent "nutritious" messages that will make society healthier rather than the junk food messages that taste good yet make society ill.

But Nenshi managed to present a wholesome message in a way that tastes good. He uses emotionally charged language and imagery rather than relying on people to be rational and enlightened enough to be persuaded by logic. I think many progressives see emotional appeals as manipulative which, despite their effectiveness, should be avoided. I've always felt this way myself as I consider the emotional aspect to be the main differentiator between information and propaganda. However, I think that our fundamental nature as humans is to absorb information that appeals to us emotionally, and the important thing is that an emotionally persuasive argument include a logical argument in addition to things like stories or appeals to hope and ideals. It just doesn't seem to be possible to resonate with people on a wide scale otherwise.

[mousquet]

Take it easy, y'all. The real thing has never been as simple as being either conservative or liberal. A little bit of lucidité shows that it goes far beyond the sorry penises of the regular liberals and conservatives.

Frankly, I think the French socialists are currrently the worst pricks in France, and I'm fighting against them. They're just as sectarian as the Front National (the ugly French nationalists), except that they're twice as hypocritical. For example, merely using poor immigrants for their political interests. But do they have any serious opportunity to succeed for immigrants today? No. All they've got for them is - take the pitiful welfare we grant you, and then shut your mouths. That's all they've got. Is that decent? I hate the French socialists for that. They're corrupting my country, basically pretty much like Talibans in Afghanistan, impoverishing people around them, so they can take over more easily. They're the most pitiful kind of humans on Earth.

So, there are good ideas to pick on either side and way beyond. Politics is much of 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 anyway, You all know it, so don't even bother. It's too much of hypocritical communication. Real truth is elsewhere. It's always been so.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I listened to the Ideas podcast tonight and I agree it was an amazing speech. Not so much because anything he said was that revolutionary, but because of how he said it. Many progressives think of progressive messages as being like proverbial vegetables. They might not taste as good as the simplistic, emotion charged junk food messages often used to rally support around conservative or reactionary positions, but one should have enough sense to consume intelligent "nutritious" messages that will make society healthier rather than the junk food messages that taste good yet make society ill.

But Nenshi managed to present a wholesome message in a way that tastes good. He uses emotionally charged language and imagery rather than relying on people to be rational and enlightened enough to be persuaded by logic. I think many progressives see emotional appeals as manipulative which, despite their effectiveness, should be avoided. I've always felt this way myself as I consider the emotional aspect to be the main differentiator between information and propaganda. However, I think that our fundamental nature as humans is to absorb information that appeals to us emotionally, and the important thing is that an emotionally persuasive argument include a logical argument in addition to things like stories or appeals to hope and ideals. It just doesn't seem to be possible to resonate with people on a wide scale otherwise.

Nenshi, if he wanted, I think could be Canada's Obama. His message is powerfully presented and can bring together Canadians of all stripes. It would reach even those of us who occupy the centre-right. If the socialist left is looking for a champion, I think it would be Naheed Nenshi.

Who would have thought that a (possibly gay) Muslim with south Asian roots could become mayor of Calgary of all places. If he can do that, then surely he could become Prime Minister as well.