Canada Election 2015

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

Statements such as this point to your own ignorance moreso than that of Conservative voters.

Perhaps yourself, Migs, and O-Tac can start your own thread for memes, insults, and other childish nonsense while the rest of us continue with intelligent discussion in this thread.

Originally Posted by flar

Are we seriously suggesting there is no xenophobia, racial intolerance, or overinflated and irrational fears of things like terrorism or crime in this country? We are seriously fooling ourselves if we deny this. I don't think there is any question that the people subject to these tendencies exist and are overwhelmingly in the Conservative camp.

That doesn't mean everyone who supports the Conservatives is intolerant, racist or fearful. No serious person is going to argue that. But yes, they are there, and yes, they are a factor in this election.

An intelligent conversation needs to entertain the possibility that they do form part of the Conservative base, even if the Conservative Party doesn't explicitly court them or advocate their views.

I think the problem here is that people don't "like" to hear themselves or people they associate with categorized in such a way because no one - including the people who are - want to categorize themselves as such. Things like "intolerance" and "selfishness" aren't specific terms and in fact are quite relative. There are people who strongly dislike immigrants or gays, or different racial groups or what have you, who feel that they're being extremely tolerant for not physically attacking them or calling them names in the street. They would feel that things like supporting laws or policies that a progressive or centrist person would view as highly discriminatory, are in fact simply being "sensible" and being smart enough to not bow down to elements of society that they feel are subversive.

So for progressive, the contrast in stances is a sign of intolerance or selfishness or fear/paranoia, while for conservatives, it's just being cautious and assertive. So when progressives call them out using such terms, conservatives react is if it's some horrible, shocking insult, while progressives are puzzled as to why they don't simply acknowledge it as fact.

That's why using these terms is so divisive. Not because it isn't accurate in relation to the perspective of the person uttering them, but because it doesn't tend to play a useful role in communication.

[no_name]

Originally Posted by flar

Are we seriously suggesting there is no xenophobia, racial intolerance, or overinflated and irrational fears of things like terrorism or crime in this country? We are seriously fooling ourselves if we deny this. I don't think there is any question that the people subject to these tendencies exist and are overwhelmingly in the Conservative camp.

That doesn't mean everyone who supports the Conservatives is intolerant, racist or fearful. No serious person is going to argue that. But yes, they are there, and yes, they are a factor in this election.

An intelligent conversation needs to entertain the possibility that they do form part of the Conservative base, even if the Conservative Party doesn't explicitly court them or advocate their views.

Is there is a data to back up your statement? I would love to see it. Or is it your gut feeling?
Because from reading this forum, my feeling is the opposite, the ones that are tend to be intolerant are the ones who claim to be progressive.

Just so everyone knows, I am indifferent to all parties. Therefore there is no favoritism, and don't have the mind set that this is my party; and I will defend it at all cost. It appears to me that a few on this forum is doing just that.

Many times, shreddog had provided the links and proofs to counter untrue claims. Instead of correcting their stands, the same person(s) then go on to make other claims.. I notice this pattern a lot in this forum.

And Shreddog is not even a conservative guy, and yet he feels the need to set the records straight.

[flar]

Originally Posted by no_name

Is there is a data to back up your statement? I would love to see it. Or is it your gut feeling?
Because from reading this forum, my feeling is the opposite, the ones that are tend to be intolerant are the ones who claim to be progressive.

Just so everyone knows, I am indifferent to all parties. Therefore there is no favoritism, and don't have the mind set that this is my party; and I will defend it at all cost. It appears to me that a few on this forum is doing just that.

Many times, shreddog had provided the links and proofs to counter untrue claims. Instead of correcting their stands, the same person(s) then go on to make other claims.. I notice this pattern a lot in this forum.

And Shreddog is not even a conservative guy, and yet he feels the need to set the records straight.

I grew up among them.

[no_name]

Originally Posted by flar

I grew up among them.

I also grew up among intolerant progressive as well.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Migs

The world was a lot safer place after Hiroshima, with Iran on the verge of obtaining a nuclear weapon & obtaining ICBMs from the Russians & their sole purpose is to wipe Isreal off the map, I'd rather that dirt cesspool of a region eat a nuke before our Jewish friends do. Don't even have to actually do it, just let those ISIS goat lovers think there might be a chance it happens. People were afraid of Reagan, that's why his foreign policy worked.

But that wasn't my point in regards to domestic affairs. Are you denying that lefties Suzuki & Gore are really millionaire capitalists? Are you denying that Trudeau was born with a silver spoon in his mouth & still cannot define what middle class is yet claims he is their champion? Are you denying that Mulcairs carbon footprint is atrocious for someone who claims the climate is in peril? I could go on & on.

Yes, please enlighten us with more of your racist, small minded rhetoric that sounds like it came from the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 of Rush Limbaugh. Since you have it all figured out Migs maybe you should be in charge of foreign affairs. After all, what better way to prevent genocide than to enact it upon others. Have you considered moving to Alabama? I think you'd fit in nicely.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by flar

Are we seriously suggesting there is no xenophobia, intolerance, or overinflated and irrational fears of things like terrorism or crime in this country? We are seriously fooling ourselves if we deny this. I don't think there is any question that the people subject to these tendencies exist and are overwhelmingly in the Conservative camp.

That doesn't mean everyone who supports the Conservatives is intolerant, racist or fearful. No serious person is going to argue that. But yes, they are there, and yes, they are a factor in this election.

An intelligent conversation needs to entertain the possibility that they do form part of the Conservative base, even if the Conservative Party doesn't explicitly court them or advocate their views.

Except the CPC is actively courting them and promoting their views by ratcheting up islamophobia and using the threat of terrorism to get rural bigots like Migs who have never even met a Muslim before whipped up into a frenzy. They are using Replublican style smear campaigns, divisionary language and rhetoric and fear mongering to try and win the election. They know the migs' of the world are few and don't really represent the majority of their voters, yet count on their loudmouth grandstanding to help them win the race.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

There, fixed that for you.

I suspect that merging under the NDP banner would scare off some of the more centrist Liberal voters. All the Conservatives would have to do would be move very slightly towards centre and they'd swallow up all these votes.
Isn't the goal to unite the left and actually win?

So for a merger to work as intended, the NDP would have to die, not the other way around.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Yes, please enlighten us with more of your racist, small minded rhetoric that sounds like it came from the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 of Rush Limbaugh. Since you have it all figured out Migs maybe you should be in charge of foreign affairs. After all, what better way to prevent genocide than to enact it upon others. Have you considered moving to Alabama? I think you'd fit in nicely.

I've always found it funny how left wingers preach tolerance, and yet can turn around and be incredibly intolerant and elitist towards other people's views.
I'm not defending Migs here in any way, but quite frankly, branding everyone in Alabama as small minded and racist pretty much brings you down to his level.

At least try to practice what you preach

[CCF]

Liberals, NDP, and Green Party should have collaborated this election to form government and introduce some form of proportional representation.

The vast majority of Canadians do not want the Conservatives in power - it's just a shame that our current system is so flawed that it makes it a likely reality.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

I've always found it funny how left wingers preach tolerance, and yet can turn around and be incredibly intolerant and elitist towards other people's views.
I'm not defending Migs here in any way, but quite frankly, branding everyone in Alabama as small minded and racist pretty much brings you down to his level.

At least try to practice what you preach

Yes I've insulted all Alabamans by comparing them to Migs.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

I suspect that merging under the NDP banner would scare off some of the more centrist Liberal voters. All the Conservatives would have to do would be move very slightly towards centre and they'd swallow up all these votes.
Isn't the goal to unite the left and actually win?

So for a merger to work as intended, the NDP would have to die, not the other way around.

I disagree with your prediction. It may scare off "some" voters, but it would also pull voters from the Bloc and Greens that would have been lost under the LPC. But neither would be enough to significantly alter the outcome.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I disagree with your prediction. It may scare off "some" voters, but it would also pull voters from the Bloc and Greens that would have been lost under the LPC. But neither would be enough to significantly alter the outcome.

I think you underestimate how "tarnished" the NDP brand is in suburban Vancouver and Toronto (this one in particular is very important to any party's prospects). Not that it's necessarily deserved, but provincial NDP governments have a big impact on people's opinions of the federal NDP, especially since they lack a track record federally.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

I think you underestimate how "tarnished" the NDP brand is in suburban Vancouver and Toronto (this one in particular is very important to any party's prospects). Not that it's necessarily deserved, but provincial NDP governments have a big impact on people's opinions of the federal NDP, especially since they lack a track record federally.

Did you not see that 1st and 2nd choice table geo posted a few weeks ago? Clearly the number of people who would move to the conservatives if their first choice wasn't available is very small compared to the hypothetical crossover between the NDP and LPC. In fact, people who put the NDP as their second choice was more than triple those with the CPC as second choice.

Originally Posted by geotag277

There aren't many "second choice" polls out there, but this is an actual EKOS poll result:



Again, the quality of the poll itself is somewhat in question, but there is significant non trivial support for Conservatives as a second choice and it has to be coming from somewhere.

[travis3000]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-grenier-polls-oct1-1.3252148

[kiwi]

Conservative candidate Joe Oliver says Conservatives would introduce a two-year mandatory minimum sentence for fraud over $5,000.


http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2676453517/


I'll be clear I'm against tax fraud, but I'm also against importing Americas failed justice system into Canada. The Conservatives want a criminal justice system which consist of mega prisons, additions criminal code offences and mandatory minimums, how many times has Harper added new criminal code offences I can't even think of that many crimes. Again Harper is trying Americanize Canada.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by travis3000

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-grenier-polls-oct1-1.3252148

I think this is misleading. Most of that bump has come from Quebec where voters are shifting to them or the Bloc. Also even if the overall percentage were to go up for the cons a lot of it is in ridings that will still likely go orange. Net result is these numbers are meaningless until Election Day. If more of this shift was in the GTA I'd be more afraid.

[Nouvellecosse]

Yeah, when the race is quite close, the popular support numbers must be considered in conjunction with the vote distribution in order for it to have much relevance. Just part of the FPTP system.

[flar]

Originally Posted by no_name

I also grew up among intolerant progressive as well.

Absolutely, there are tons of people who write off others as uneducated rednecks and hicks.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Yes, please enlighten us with more of your racist, small minded rhetoric that sounds like it came from the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 of Rush Limbaugh. Since you have it all figured out Migs maybe you should be in charge of foreign affairs. After all, what better way to prevent genocide than to enact it upon others. Have you considered moving to Alabama? I think you'd fit in nicely.

Racist? What have I said that is racist?

[manny_santos]

I am a former Conservative supporter who voted for them in 2004, 2006, and 2008, and voted Liberal in 2011 (and am an ABC voter this time around). I know a lot of Conservative supporters, and I find most of them are single issue voters. Most of them are anti-abortion and they are Conservative supporters because they're convinced that party is going to reopen the abortion debate (which they haven't, and are unlikely to do anytime soon). Incidentally one of these people I know was part of the group passing out anti-Trudeau flyers with aborted fetuses on them in Mississauga; when I last talked to her she seemed to simply not care about any other issue, not even Syrian refugees. Most of that group simply doesn't care about any of the other issues facing Canada.

Others support their local Conservative candidate because it's someone they know. Still others support them because of a perception that they are pro-business.