Rural Commuter Rail

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Uh, it actually serves a 2.5 km band.

But this is true, I think part of the reason that these tracks are scoffed at is because they would take away ridership in the west from the confederation line. Also, they dont go directly downtown. But that doesnt mean that an experimental service shouldnt be introduced. If they took and ran the three trains from the Trillium line for a 12 month period, I am sure they would find that there would be a good amount of ridership, and new ridership at that. But you know, too much work.

If the expectations is that people should walk more than 1 km to transit, I think ridership will continue to plummet. The industry standard I believe is 400m. Beyond that, ridership really starts to fall off.

Regarding taking away ridership from the Confederation Line, what should we do? Cancel all parallel bus routes because they could potentially do likewise. This is an argument that I have heard before. We need to design a transit system that treats riders as customers. In other words, provides good service. The rail line in question really doesn't significantly compete for Confederation Line ridership. Yes, it doesn't serve downtown at all, but that is the point. As Ottawa decentralizes, we need to consider suburb to suburb transit more. This is one of the current goals with the expansion of Go Transit in Toronto. It is only way for transit to go to the next step and to appeal to a wider audience.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The rail line in question really doesn't significantly compete for Confederation Line ridership. Yes, it doesn't serve downtown at all, but that is the point. As Ottawa decentralizes, we need to consider suburb to suburb transit more. This is one of the current goals with the expansion of Go Transit in Toronto. It is only way for transit to go to the next step and to appeal to a wider audience.

Not only does the CN corridor provide suburb to suburb transit but it also provides more linkages with the Confederation and Trillium lines to Algonquin, Carleton, downtown, Gatineau and ultimately to the airport. This route should be seen primarily as an OC Transpo route and not a commuter route to outlying communities to begin with, providing frequent all day service. If the stops are farther apart, then it can be operated more as an express service reducing travel time. ( as long as the same consultants don't design the siding spacing and signal system ). There are several long sidings on the route now originally designed for long freight trains.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Not only does the CN corridor provide suburb to suburb transit but it also provides more linkages with the Confederation and Trillium lines to Algonquin, Carleton, downtown, Gatineau and ultimately to the airport. This route should be seen primarily as an OC Transpo route and not a commuter route to outlying communities to begin with, providing frequent all day service. If the stops are farther apart, then it can be operated more as an express service reducing travel time. ( as long as the same consultants don't design the siding spacing and signal system ). There are several long sidings on the route now originally designed for long freight trains.

Totally agree with you. The linkages it adds will be invaluable.

I see Phase 1 being from Greenboro to Kanata with stops at March Road, Highway 417(not sure about how this would be done but a connection to Transitway buses and to CTC would be very useful), Moodie, Richmond Road, Queensway/Carleton Hospital(Cedarview), Greenbank, Woodroffe, Merivale, Colonade Business Park, Riverside, Greenboro. Extensions further east would only make sense during peak periods (Conroy, Ottawa Business Park East, Hawthorne) unless we build out to Orleans.

[MoreTrains]

Well, you know, suburb to suburb transit is an amazing concept. But Im sure, the city sees it as a Confederation Line to busses and vice versa, not bus to bus or train to train. Which is unfortunate, because the city in this case, would only need to pay for platforms as they already own the tracks and some trainsets. Perhaps a good idea would be to ask the province or the feds for help, the cost shouldnt be more than $100 million so it isnt such a taxing burden for either to cover 100%.

[waterloowarrior]

Does anyone know what the plan for the rural commuter buses will be once the LRT comes in? Perhaps they will go to Blair or Cyrville and drop off passengers instead of heading right downtown... or have one LRT stop then bus directly downtown after that.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Well, you know, suburb to suburb transit is an amazing concept. But Im sure, the city sees it as a Confederation Line to busses and vice versa, not bus to bus or train to train. Which is unfortunate, because the city in this case, would only need to pay for platforms as they already own the tracks and some trainsets. Perhaps a good idea would be to ask the province or the feds for help, the cost shouldnt be more than $100 million so it isnt such a taxing burden for either to cover 100%.

Perhaps the Trudeau infrastructure fund if he becomes PM. It is too bad we are not preparing for some potential extra money suddenly becoming available.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Does anyone know what the plan for the rural commuter buses will be once the LRT comes in? Perhaps they will go to Blair or Cyrville and drop off passengers instead of heading right downtown... or have one LRT stop then bus directly downtown after that.

This will be something that will have to be considered carefully. When there is only one or two runs a day from a particular area, if we introduce a transfer, there is a risk of stranding passengers. Rockland is a different story since there are several runs.

I have looked into commuter buses for a co-worker who lives well south of the city. There is one trip and she would need to take a bus to connect to this one trip. If anything goes wrong, she is stuck. How does she get home?

The Confederation Line will be more reliable but even trains are not immune to problems.

[McC]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is too bad we are not preparing for some potential extra money suddenly becoming available.

How do you know the City isn't? All three parties have promised to increase annual funding for transit investments. It's a pretty easy exercise: just draw up the list of items that are in the TMP's "Ultimate Network" but not in the "Affordable Network," come up with a rough ranking using estimated price and a score for "value/priority" and match them to the three scenarios. You'd get something that looks like:
Party platform A, estimated new transit $X, add components 1 and 2
Party platform B, estimated new transit $Y, add components 1, 2 and 3
Party platform C, estimated new transit $Z, add components 1, 2, 3 and 4

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by McC

How do you know the City isn't? All three parties have promised to increase annual funding for transit investments. It's a pretty easy exercise: just draw up the list of items that are in the TMP's "Ultimate Network" but not in the "Affordable Network," come up with a rough ranking using estimated price and a score for "value/priority" and match them to the three scenarios. You'd get something that looks like:
Party platform A, estimated new transit $X, add components 1 and 2
Party platform B, estimated new transit $Y, add components 1, 2 and 3
Party platform C, estimated new transit $Z, add components 1, 2, 3 and 4

That isnt how governments work, there is no looking forwards. lol

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by McC

How do you know the City isn't? All three parties have promised to increase annual funding for transit investments. It's a pretty easy exercise: just draw up the list of items that are in the TMP's "Ultimate Network" but not in the "Affordable Network," come up with a rough ranking using estimated price and a score for "value/priority" and match them to the three scenarios. You'd get something that looks like:
Party platform A, estimated new transit $X, add components 1 and 2
Party platform B, estimated new transit $Y, add components 1, 2 and 3
Party platform C, estimated new transit $Z, add components 1, 2, 3 and 4

Well first of all the city needs some long term vision. Then it needs to prioritize the projects needed to bring the vision to fruition. In my opinion this means picking the low hanging fruit first such as implementing service to Kanata on the CN corridor and double tracking in segments the Trillium Line until it is totally double tracked at least from Bayview to Greenboro.

[McC]

You're conflating two issues, the City has a long-term plan, only that plan doesn't include one or two projects that you want it to. But not liking the City's long-term plan doesn't negate the existence of the City's long-term plan. Disagree with the long-term plan? Fill your boots and argue away, that's what these forums are for. But denying that there is such a plan (Council-approved and publicly-available) just makes you sound ignorant.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

That isnt how governments work, there is no looking forwards. lol

Certainly not looking past the next election!

[lrt's friend]

I expect that if the Conservatives or NDP win, then we are basically going to have the affordable plan. However, if the Liberals win, then there will be extra money for infrastructure available. The problem is, do we have anything further sufficiently advanced in the planning process that would qualify for this extra funding in the next 3 years? I could see the airport spur getting funded, and the Trim Road extension being funded. Certainly not double tracking the Trillium Line or the proposed use of the CNR line which we have been discussing. There has been no planning on either of these ideas, at least nothing that could be used today.

And yes, we are constrained by the TMP, which dropped the use of the CNR route, that at least partially was in the previous TMP. You really have to question the wisdom of such a radical change in the TMP that took place after the failure of the 2006 North-South plan.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by McC

You're conflating two issues, the City has a long-term plan, only that plan doesn't include one or two projects that you want it to. But not liking the City's long-term plan doesn't negate the existence of the City's long-term plan. Disagree with the long-term plan? Fill your boots and argue away, that's what these forums are for. But denying that there is such a plan (Council-approved and publicly-available) just makes you sound ignorant.

Is there a long term plan when the O-Train cannot run at the planned 8 minute frequency and there is no plan to fix the problem by increasing the amount of double track? It appears that we cannot not get short term plans to come to fruition.

Is there a process in place to honestly analyze various options to determine cost and value to the taxpayer?

Need I say more?

[lrt's friend]

The airport authority said it very well. We have an opportunity to build rail to the airport as part of the Trillium Line expansion or we will be waiting a very long time. What has happened to the original O-Train very much demonstrates this. Double tracking was planned and we abandoned it. It won't happen for a very long time. 2006 was the opportunity and it will be very difficult to create another opportunity especially as we expand the service. We won't get 8 minute frequency or 10 minute frequency. We are maxed out based on the current limitations. We will be trying to cobble together something that will work, sort of. At this point, further double tracking really means fully double tracking the line. If we don't do so, there will always be choke points and as we saw again today, fairly regular interruptions in service.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The airport authority said it very well. We have an opportunity to build rail to the airport as part of the Trillium Line expansion or we will be waiting a very long time. What has happened to the original O-Train very much demonstrates this. Double tracking was planned and we abandoned it. It won't happen for a very long time. 2006 was the opportunity and it will be very difficult to create another opportunity especially as we expand the service. We won't get 8 minute frequency or 10 minute frequency. We are maxed out based on the current limitations. We will be trying to cobble together something that will work, sort of. At this point, further double tracking really means fully double tracking the line. If we don't do so, there will always be choke points and as we saw again today, fairly regular interruptions in service.

Some of the double tracking can be done in phases without having to shutdown existing service. The section from Carleton to Greensboro could be done in 2 phases with no interruption of service. The section from Gladstone to Bayview could also be done with no interruption of service. The problem is the trench between Gladstone and the tunnel entrance on the west side of Dows Lake. If the hours of service were shortened work could be done in the evening and night, however this would result in many issues with noise and dust disturbance to nearby residents.
Clearly we should avoid this situation as much as possible by double tracking the new Phase 2 extension. Before Airport service is started between Bayview and the Airport the northern section will need to be double tracked.
These issues do not arise with the CN corridor because the right of way is all at ground level, most grade separations are already in place and allow for double tracking. Double tracking should be the rule not the exception when building these systems.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I expect that if the Conservatives or NDP win, then we are basically going to have the affordable plan. However, if the Liberals win, then there will be extra money for infrastructure available. The problem is, do we have anything further sufficiently advanced in the planning process that would qualify for this extra funding in the next 3 years? I could see the airport spur getting funded, and the Trim Road extension being funded. Certainly not double tracking the Trillium Line or the proposed use of the CNR line which we have been discussing. There has been no planning on either of these ideas, at least nothing that could be used today.

And yes, we are constrained by the TMP, which dropped the use of the CNR route, that at least partially was in the previous TMP. You really have to question the wisdom of such a radical change in the TMP that took place after the failure of the 2006 North-South plan.

Ottawa's share would be about 400M over 10 years; it might pay for an extra road project a year but wouldn't pay for anything grandiose. Would go further if province and city borrowed more to match, but both are pretty tapped out debt wise. Mostly just another election gimmick.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Ottawa's share would be about 400M over 10 years; it might pay for an extra road project a year but wouldn't pay for anything grandiose.

I guess that means it would also pay for an extra rail - road project a year too.
Never hurts to imagine the possibilities.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Not only does the CN corridor provide suburb to suburb transit but it also provides more linkages with the Confederation and Trillium lines to Algonquin, Carleton, downtown, Gatineau and ultimately to the airport. This route should be seen primarily as an OC Transpo route and not a commuter route to outlying communities to begin with, providing frequent all day service. If the stops are farther apart, then it can be operated more as an express service reducing travel time. ( as long as the same consultants don't design the siding spacing and signal system ). There are several long sidings on the route now originally designed for long freight trains.

I think it was determined a while back that the CN line has poor TOD potential as it does not run parallel to any main streets, and much of its route is through established (and low density) neighbourhoods that are more resistant to redevelopment. Baseline won out as a transit corridor for its more obvious potential, as BRT in the mid term but may eventually evolve to rail in the far future. You can't really plan effectively beyond a 25 to 30 year span, as demographics, technology and other factors will change, and there's already enough in the TMP's "ultimate network" for Ottawa to commit its efforts and money toward for at least a few decades.

[ACmodels]

Commuter train consortium to announce insurance provider shortly

September 28, 2015
Smiths Falls Record News
By Stacey Roy

When Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais Systems and Entperises (mOOse) Inc. formally announces their insurance provider in the next few weeks they will have met one of the Transport Canada’s requirements and be positioned to move into its feasibility study this coming spring.

The $5 million feasibility plan will be undertaken in conjunction with negotiations with underwriters and the National Capital Commission’s Federal Land Use Application process, which are underway or beginning shortly.

Joseph Potvin, president of mOOse Inc. assured Smiths Falls councillors at the Sept. 28 committee meeting that they’re on track to meet the projected 2017 service launch.

“It’s quite ambitious but the tracks are there,” Potvin said.

mOOse is a private sector proposal that seeks to link the communities from Wakefield to Smiths Falls with a reliable 400 km commuter train service.

“I don’t think it’s ambitious I think it’s exciting,” remarked Coun. John Maloney.

Potvin said business partners in the consortium will be meeting Oct. 2 to formally sign the agreement to move forward.

The private business consortium asked Smiths Falls to pass a resolution that would allow town staff and councillors to travel out of province for mOOse meetings (as some may be held in Quebec), be open to the regional concept, and finally to be willing to share existing data with the company, which was generally supported around the horseshoe.

“I’d like to see that happen,” said Coun. Chris Cummings.

Potvin notes many of the 15 municipalities involved in the routes have official plans.

“We do need to know about them if we’re going to take them into account,” Potvin said.

He insists mOOse’s service will be complementary to the existing Ottawa and Gatineau transportation plans so that maximum value is created. While negotiations have continued, Dr. Bill Pomfret of Safety Projects International Inc. has been busy developing a series of 24 safety policies and protocols that range from employee and citizen safety to public education efforts and terrorism protection.

“This is only really the start,” Pomfret said.

Up to this point, Potvin said the biggest obstacle to their private venture has been disbelief that such a transportation business start could be profitable in today’s economic setting. He notes it has been a generation since a startup transportation company has proposed to operate on Canada’s rail system. However, Potvin added their Property Powered Rail system is getting a lot of interest in Europe and North America. Currently Ferrari operates a private train system between Milan and Rome and a new Copenhagen study comparing private versus public commuter systems has been announced.

Cummings counted himself among those with a healthy dose of disbelief back in 2011 when mOOse’s proposal first came to town. However, the veteran businessman and councillor had occasion this week to congratulate consortium representatives on their dedication and successes that has turned his disbelief around.

“Certainly, that has subsided dramatically. It makes sense,” Cummings said of the proposal.

Coun. Jay Brennan questioned the business model this week when he asked Potvin to clarify how each community would pay mOOse for their services. Potvin explained the data solutions company known as Altus Group out of Montreal will be providing mOOse with factual data on how real estate values have increased since the mOOse station was announced.

“We won’t be estimating, we’ll actually be making use of genuine data,” Potvin said.

This increase in value for properties that are approximately .8 km walking distance from the station will be calculated and a portion of this value (based on a prescribed formula) will be billed back to mOOse for services rendered. Potvin noted, this number isn’t tied to the Municipal Property Assessment Corporation’s (MPAC) assessment, but is based on real numbers in the open market, so it is uncertain at this time how it will impact the town’s revenue from taxation.

“What mOOse creates is a market,” Potvin added. “What it will do is bring more property values to you.”

Potvin noted each of the 15 municipal stations will be treated as their own business and will have difference service agreements with mOOse. Smiths Falls has been keeping updated on mOOse’s activities since their initial presentation years ago. Potvin thanked town staff and local politicians for being active participants thus far when he said: “Smiths Falls is certainly the leading municipal in the whole population of municipalities in the region.”

Councillors supported bringing forward a resolution that speaks to mOOse’s requests.

http://www.insideottawavalley.com/news-s...-to-announce-insurance-provider-shortly/