Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Boring would also necessitate deeper stations, correct?

One thing I do like about some of the Canada Line stations is how quickly you go from train to surface. Broadway is one escalator compared to 3 at Yaletown, for example.

Could that also be because of the hill on that stretch of Canada Line? So on Broadway the train is actually going downhill whereas for Broadway station they just go "straight" out which with the hill means it exits quicker? Not sure if I'm entirely clear on my thought-to-forum translation so sorry if I'm not. Like where it is flat at say King Edward. I think you're right though in the sense that boring would likely mean deeper stations vs cut and cover.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Could that also be because of the hill on that stretch of Canada Line? So on Broadway the train is actually going downhill whereas for Broadway station they just go "straight" out which with the hill means it exits quicker? Not sure if I'm entirely clear on my thought-to-forum translation so sorry if I'm not. Like where it is flat at say King Edward. I think you're right though in the sense that boring would likely mean deeper stations vs cut and cover.

Well the same thing exists at King Ed, only the lines are stacked so one is a bit lower.

Cut and cover seems easier to me since you are digging a hole, creating the cement box, then filling in the rest to street level. You couldn't dig a tunnel so close to the surface with a boring machine or the whole thing would collapse.

I'm no engineer, just makes sense in my head.

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I don't care if they bore or cut n' cover, as long as they cut n' cover most stations, it will make the stations WAY more accessible. Particularly if they cut n' cover at 10th which is uphill from Broadway.

Of course, when you compare to elevated lines, tunnels are almost always 'boring'.

Can't 'cut and cover' the stations (if you mean shallower stations to grade) as boring implies deep excavation. If stacked tunnel, I envision depths of Yaletown as the standard.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by logan5

Is there a way to make station construction less disruptive? Going off previous experience with the Canada Lines TBM section downtown, station construction meant the complete closure of Granville street from Robson to Georgia (though Broadway is much wider than that section of Granville). That's 165 meters of street closure for much smaller stations.

Well you can reasonably close the street to do surface work. The Grandville station had to connect with the Expo Line's Grandville concourse (which changed the exit to London Drugs, which used to straight into the Mall.)

The complaints for Cambie was because they cut-and-covered the entire line after it went under False Creek. Not just the stations.

[Hot Rod]

I hope there will be multiple exits (like in NY, Chi) per station rather than one large/medium opening at the key stops including Granville, Cambie, Main, UBC Central. I think this will be more efficient spreading out the traffic while allowing retail opportunities for the stations.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

I hope there will be multiple exits (like in NY, Chi) per station rather than one large/medium opening at the key stops including Granville, Cambie, Main, UBC Central. I think this will be more efficient spreading out the traffic while allowing retail opportunities for the stations.

I agree 100%. Granville is my favourite underground station as it has so many connections. Even if they are not built on day one, they need to be pre-designed and reserved. A good pro-Canada Line trend is that Inlet Centre station has two entrances, even Lincoln station has the design/capacity for another exit at the other end of the station in the future.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

Can't 'cut and cover' the stations (if you mean shallower stations to grade) as boring implies deep excavation. If stacked tunnel, I envision depths of Yaletown as the standard.

Why not? They did that downtown with the Canada Line. The tunnel machine met up with with the Vancouver City Centre station that was cut n' cover excavated.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

I hope there will be multiple exits (like in NY, Chi) per station rather than one large/medium opening at the key stops including Granville, Cambie, Main, UBC Central. I think this will be more efficient spreading out the traffic while allowing retail opportunities for the stations.

If I remember correctly the reasoning behind having less entrances / exits at millennium line stations was to increase safety. Especially at stations that have low ridership. Basically they want to funnel everyone through the same area.

[dleung]

I'd only do bored tunnel for complex surface conditions. Here, it should be cut-and-cover under 10th. Save the money, pay off the affected homeowners, finish building it sooner. Ridership takes a bit of a hit when you increase journey times from station entrance to platform.

[Alex Mackinnon]

You guys are very constrained with how you describe construction methods.

Ideally you should have the station already excavated when the TBM arrives so that maintenance can occur from the outside of the machine. If Evergreen had a pre-excavated station part way along the tunnel alignment you can bet where maintenance would have occured.

A bored tunnel can end up in a cut and cover station, but it's not really an issue for Broadway since Translink already owns properties on the side of the road. The body of the station can be located on those properties with smaller excavations are used for train access.

For instance could dig a station pit on the side of the road and excavate sideways to the tunnel alignment. There's lots of ways of supporting ground in this manner. Fun methods like box jacking can even occur where you prebuild a ground support structure and push it into the final location.

Also, TBMs can mine at very shallow depths, they just are more prone to making sinkholes rather than spreading ground deformation over larger areas.

[Hot Rod]

Originally Posted by cornholio

If I remember correctly the reasoning behind having less entrances / exits at millennium line stations was to increase safety. Especially at stations that have low ridership. Basically they want to funnel everyone through the same area.

I don't disagree that low/lower ridership stations should have a single large entrance, but I must admit that I am heavily disappointed that City Hall/Broadway station on the Canada Line is one large station. That is a KEY intersection for the midtown of Vancouver and there's nothing serving the other side of the street.

Wouldn't it be great to have say a grand entrance where it is but outlet exits on the other side of Broadway? Perhaps this could be added in with the M Line, but it seems like a missed opportunity that could have already been done and not have to add to the cost of the M Line subway.

I agree that every station should have a main/primary entrance but the larger/more important subway stations should have small entrances to better funnel traffic, like connect them into buildings or on the side (see Granville station, the poster child of my thought)

My 'wish list' of multiple exit stations:

Expo Line
*Waterfront (already has it) CHECK
*Burrard (sort of has it with multiple entrances into Bentall Centre skyscraper complex) CHECK, sort of.
*Granville (YES, this is what I'm talking about, just like NYC/CHI. Should have connected Canada Line then could have just taken the same name/Granville for both lines and been a transfer station - I for one would call Burrard/Granville as Van city centre; nevertheless I think better signage for the current layout would do wonders) CHECK
*Stadium/Chinatown (already has it, similar to Waterfront but could use a small one closer to Pender) CHECK
*Broadway/Commercial - this might not be necessary now but as/if this area ever densifies it would have been nice to have more than just the station/grand entrance on the corner
*Metrotown - this is not a subway station but the new design under construction already solves access to more than JUST the shopping mall
*Surrey Central - same as Broadway/Commercial since this is the main station for downtown Surrey which surely will grow. while its not a subway station an overhead to the other side would be nice (and likely could be added). should follow the same model as Metrotown IMO.

M Line
Probably none of the existing since none are subway aside from Broadway/Commercial - already mentioned
*Cambie/Broadway/City Hall - First off, I'd rename drop the City Hall moniker and just rename the new combined station to Cambie/Broadway station. Definitely would add an exit or two to the other side of Broadway and maybe one up Cambie at City Hall
*Oak - although this would be a small station there is good reason to have many smaller entrances given all of the businesses nearby AND the Vancouver General Hospital (which needs its own entrance)
*Granville/Uptown this would be a rather large station given its the centre of Uptown but really can't have a large entrance (given the density of development). So, add in multiple entrances, maybe even one close to Burrard depending upon where the station itself will be situated

Canada Line
* Waterfront - already mentioned, already has multiples CHECK
* Vancouver City Centre - Already mentioned the missed opportunity here when they decided Canada Line should be independent of Expo/Granville Station. To solve this I'd combine this with Granville and rename the new complex to just Granville (or maybe Granville/City Centre).
I'd definitely add an entrance into Robson Square somehow since such a grand station would be worthy of a major city's city centre - or at least navigation signage on how to get to the subway station while all underground.
* Yaletown/Roundhouse - definitely should have an entrance at the roundhouse, come on Vancouver. .... I'd change the name Davie/Roundhouse so not to promote any commercial area (can you imagine if we had a Coal Harbour station, a Downtown South station, a Davie Village/District station, an Alberni Luxury District station, or change Burrard on Expo Line into Vancouver Financial District station, so on. .. Only heritage areas need to station names, ala Chinatown or (later) Punjabi Market/Little India station, all other stations need to be street oriented OR destination (for the suburbs).
* Broadway/City Hall - mentioned before, drop the City Hall and call it Cambie/Broadway then add in stations on the other side of Broadway and perhaps one up Cambie a little bit by City Hall
Im not too familiar with the rest of the Canada Line other than the Airport which I think is sufficient.

Evergreen Line
Im not familiar with it since it is U/C but I suspect all of these will be larger single entrance stations and above ground.

[red-paladin]

Considering that the Evergreen line has Inlet Centre station partly under ground with two large station entrances at both ends, and some of the elevated stations are being designed to allow future second entrances, I think we are doing pretty well. Given that recent precedent, and the opening day use expected, I don't think the Broadway extension would make the same mistakes as the Canada Line regarding only one entrance to most stations.

Also, when the M-line station opens at Broadway-City Hall, it will connect together so there will be more entrances. I still find it ridiculous that there is not an underground passage to the City Hall complex. I never understood that.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

I'd definitely add an entrance into Robson Square somehow since such a grand station would be worthy of a major city's city centre - or at least navigation signage on how to get to the subway station.

Absolutely! I think this is one of the biggest flaws - or points lacking - on the system, at least in the downtown area. Plus, a subway connection to
Robson Square would doubtless give it more people, life, and energy.

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

I don't disagree that low/lower ridership stations should have a single large entrance, but I must admit that I am heavily disappointed that City Hall/Broadway station on the Canada Line is one large station. That is a KEY intersection for the midtown of Vancouver and there's nothing serving the other side of the street.

Wouldn't it be great to have say a grand entrance where it is but outlet exits on the other side of Broadway? Perhaps this could be added in with the M Line, but it seems like a missed opportunity that could have already been done and not have to add to the cost of the M Line subway.

I agree that every station should have a main/primary entrance but the larger/more important subway stations should have small entrances to better funnel traffic, like connect them into buildings or on the side (see Granville station, the poster child of my thought)

My 'wish list' of multiple exit stations:

Expo Line
*Waterfront (already has it) CHECK
*Burrard (sort of has it with multiple entrances into Bentall Centre skyscraper complex) CHECK, sort of.
*Granville (YES, this is what I'm talking about, just like NYC/CHI. Should have connected Canada Line then could have just taken the same name/Granville for both lines and been a transfer station - I for one would call Burrard/Granville as Van city centre; nevertheless I think better signage for the current layout would do wonders) CHECK
*Stadium/Chinatown (already has it, similar to Waterfront but could use a small one closer to Pender) CHECK
*Broadway/Commercial - this might not be necessary now but as/if this area ever densifies it would have been nice to have more than just the station/grand entrance on the corner
*Metrotown - this is not a subway station but the new design under construction already solves access to more than JUST the shopping mall
*Surrey Central - same as Broadway/Commercial since this is the main station for downtown Surrey which surely will grow. while its not a subway station an overhead to the other side would be nice (and likely could be added). should follow the same model as Metrotown IMO.

M Line
Probably none of the existing since none are subway aside from Broadway/Commercial - already mentioned
*Cambie/Broadway/City Hall - First off, I'd rename drop the City Hall moniker and just rename the new combined station to Cambie/Broadway station. Definitely would add an exit or two to the other side of Broadway and maybe one up Cambie at City Hall
*Oak - although this would be a small station there is good reason to have many smaller entrances given all of the businesses nearby AND the Vancouver General Hospital (which needs its own entrance)
*Granville/Uptown this would be a rather large station given its the centre of Uptown but really can't have a large entrance (given the density of development). So, add in multiple entrances, maybe even one close to Burrard depending upon where the station itself will be situated

Canada Line
* Waterfront - already mentioned, already has multiples CHECK
* Vancouver City Centre - Already mentioned the missed opportunity here when they decided Canada Line should be independent of Expo/Granville Station. To solve this I'd combine this with Granville and rename the new complex to just Granville (or maybe Granville/City Centre).
I'd definitely add an entrance into Robson Square somehow since such a grand station would be worthy of a major city's city centre - or at least navigation signage on how to get to the subway station while all underground.
* Yaletown/Roundhouse - definitely should have an entrance at the roundhouse, come on Vancouver. .... I'd change the name Davie/Roundhouse so not to promote any commercial area (can you imagine if we had a Coal Harbour station, a Downtown South station, a Davie Village/District station, an Alberni Luxury District station, or change Burrard on Expo Line into Vancouver Financial District station, so on. .. Only heritage areas need to station names, ala Chinatown or (later) Punjabi Market/Little India station, all other stations need to be street oriented OR destination (for the suburbs).
* Broadway/City Hall - mentioned before, drop the City Hall and call it Cambie/Broadway then add in stations on the other side of Broadway and perhaps one up Cambie a little bit by City Hall
Im not too familiar with the rest of the Canada Line other than the Airport which I think is sufficient.

Evergreen Line

Im not familiar with it since it is U/C but I suspect all of these will be larger single entrance stations and above ground.

Cornholio - nice name , BTW.

Also a great post. You have hit on something that few other posters have hit on .... the access to and the area around each station.

well written, and well thought out. Thank you for that work.

Someone should send your post to Translink's planning. Also a copy to planning in EVERY city along the routes.

A copy to Vancitybuzz - reference Mr. Chan - he writes about stuff like this all the time.

Make your post a public issue, not just this forum.

Planning needs to know that people a) know about such things and b) care about such things.

A RR system has a profound effect on the area around each station. most people get seduced by stats such as ... this type of line carries so many people an hour and that type carries that many people.

But after you get off the train is also what counts.

thanks again

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Absolutely! I think this is one of the biggest flaws - or points lacking - on the system, at least in the downtown area. Plus, a subway connection to
Robson Square would doubtless give it more people, life, and energy.

Isn't this impossible due to the Howe Street underground truck tunnel being in the way? Sadly the Skytrain and Canada Line stations were both built on the wrong side of Howe Street to ever be able to connect them to Robson Square.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Isn't this impossible due to the Howe Street underground truck tunnel being in the way? Sadly the Skytrain and Canada Line stations were both built on the wrong side of Howe Street to ever be able to connect them to Robson Square.

Yes, I believe you are right about the truck tunnel being in the way. The only option, it seems, would be to make the pedestrian tunnel deeper - rather like the tunnels in the London Underground, with deep escalators. And I don't think many people would go for that; not in Vancouver, where they want everything easy and at near-grade as possible.

[Ridgerunner]

Has anyone seen more drilling rigs on Broadway?

Was the one instance of a soil testing rig the only one?

If so, how did Translink know that the spot they picked was the right one to test?

Normally, you test spoil by setting the drill rig to set intervals, say every 200 meters. Has that been happening here?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

Has anyone seen more drilling rigs on Broadway?

Was the one instance of a soil testing rig the only one?

If so, how did Translink know that the spot they picked was the right one to test?

Normally, you test spoil by setting the drill rig to set intervals, say every 200 meters. Has that been happening here?

There is a difference between soil testing and spoil testing.

I doubt Translink is micro-managing this. More likely the engineering company that won the RFP to prepare the 80% detailed engineering plans has decided where to do test cores and subbed it out to whoever actually did the drilling.

I suspect after a few weeks of analysis of these cores, other cores may be done at other locations if there are unexpected discoveries.

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

There is a difference between soil testing and spoil testing.

I doubt Translink is micro-managing this. More likely the engineering company that won the RFP to prepare the 80% detailed engineering plans has decided where to do test cores and subbed it out to whoever actually did the drilling.

I suspect after a few weeks of analysis of these cores, other cores may be done at other locations if there are unexpected discoveries.

I just thought of something in regard to soils testing. There already has been a great deal of soils testing, at least as far as Granville st.

Think for a moment. On each side of Broadway, there are buildings with two, three and four levels of parking underground. That means that the soils down to 30 feet or even 50 feet, in some cases, are known .. in almost every block.

And on both sides of the street. This is especially true between just east of Cambie to Granville.

Where the soils are less well known through direct experience is between "east of Cambie" and Clark Station ... and from "west of Granville" to Arbutus.

Even "west of Granville" has some 5 and 6 story construction to Burrard .. revealing soil conditions in some detail.

Where it gets real "sticky" is west of Arbutus. There are two areas where one needs to be careful ... the flatlands around MacDonald and Broadway ... no highrises at all ... that is real "tidal fill" kind of dirt, great for single family but questionable for anything else. truth be told, we just don't know.

And - the big hill going up 10th avenue. No matter what angle the TBM cuts into the hill, it will end up 40 or 50 meters under the surface. I can just see another "Burnaby Mountain Mess" here.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

I just thought of something in regard to soils testing. There already has been a great deal of soils testing, at least as far as Granville st.

Think for a moment. On each side of Broadway, there are buildings with two, three and four levels of parking underground. That means that the soils down to 30 feet or even 50 feet, in some cases, are known .. in almost every block.

And on both sides of the street. This is especially true between just east of Cambie to Granville.

Where the soils are less well known through direct experience is between "east of Cambie" and Clark Station ... and from "west of Granville" to Arbutus.

Even "west of Granville" has some 5 and 6 story construction to Burrard .. revealing soil conditions in some detail.

Where it gets real "sticky" is west of Arbutus. There are two areas where one needs to be careful ... the flatlands around MacDonald and Broadway ... no highrises at all ... that is real "tidal fill" kind of dirt, great for single family but questionable for anything else. truth be told, we just don't know.

And - the big hill going up 10th avenue. No matter what angle the TBM cuts into the hill, it will end up 40 or 50 meters under the surface. I can just see another "Burnaby Mountain Mess" here.

You're assuming someone has kept or recorded samples from all the construction pits along Broadway.