TriMet/Metro Southwest Corridor Planning (Portland to Bridgeport Village)

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by Encolpius

Why zero TOD potential? I get that you both may be exaggerating slightly but I still don't really understand: why couldn't a new light rail line running through Lair Hill be a great catalyst for development there?

Let me try to address your questions:

Without having read the PDF, from an urbanism standpoint I don't see how a new line along Barbur or Naito wouldn't be wonderful for that neighborhood, and a new pedestrian link to Marquam Hill via public escalator or tram station or whatever would be icing on the cake.

A Barbur Blvd MAX station would be fine for Lair Hill, although it will only get 1 or 2 stops. The real question is what happens when Trimet widens Barbur in order to actually fit the MAX into the streetscape - we're talking at least 40' ROW widening, which means a lot of buildings are going to get torn down. If they expand the street to the east, there will be a much higher embankment. If they expand to the west, quite a few townhomes will go.

However, most development along Barbur (along the entire length of the road) is concentrated along one side or the other (steep hillsides and I-5 block the other half of land within TOD range), minimizing the TOD opportunities to 1/2 of what you would get compared to say the Yellow line, for instance.

See for instance Barbur & Terwilliger: what TOD opportunities are they exactly expecting at a freeway entrance?

My question is how many people who live in Lair Hill are actually going to ride the MAX to downtown?

The neighborhood is only a couple of blocks away, and if the new line doesn't actually connect anything on its southern end...

Even if you tunnel under Marquam Hill, passengers will still need to use some kind of stairs/escalator/elevator to get to the surface.

Due to the height of Marquam (~250' above Barbur) they would need to use an elevator, like they do at the zoo station. A high-speed elevator can make the trip in under 1 minute.

OHSU is the city's largest employer, so a lot of people could potentially use the MAX to access OHSU.

A 1/4 mile escalator ride and hike up 250' elevation to the top of Marquam Hill is going to take the average person 15 minutes or so, whereas a station directly under the campus will take a minute or two. Massive savings - and, considering the driving time to OHSU, most people will likely continue to drive, making a station on Barbur somewhat useless.

It is telling that the document posted by Metro says nothing about transit ridership to access OHSU, and instead focuses on thru-trips to/from downtown only. Its also telling that they predict 8% higher ridership and 7% shorter commute times with a tunnel!

This seems like a relatively easy problem compared to your typical subway station. To give an example from where I live, London's stations typically have platforms that are around 100 m (328 feet) below the surface. If I get off the Jubilee Line at Waterloo, I need to take three or four flights of escalators to get to the surface.

Not according to the internet:

14. The deepest station is Hampstead on the Northern line, which runs down to 58.5 metres.
15. In Central London the deepest station below street level is also the Northern line. It is the DLR concourse at Bank, which is 41.4 metres below.

The deepest station in the world is in Kiev, at 105 meters.

The OHSU station would be 75 meters deep, and would likely use an elevator with a vertical shaft accessing the tunnel directly below, like the zoo stop.

Absolutely, though obviously that's a far grander project (in total) than what's required to get to the top of Marquam Hill. The engineers could also look at the central Italian region of Umbria. Most of the population centers sit atop hills but the rail and highway networks run through the valleys, so every town has had to come up with a network of stairs, ramps, elevators, escalators, shuttles, funiculars and/or cable cars to get people from the train station to the heart of the old city. Marquam Hill would seem like a cakewalk to the engineers who designed the funiculars in Orvieto or Perugia.

The most elegant solution would seem to be adding a Barbur Blvd. spur to the aerial tram. Be great if they could manage that.

There is going to be a lot of geoengineering requires for this line, no matter if they tunnel or excavate half of Marquam Hill for a surface grade line. For instance, the Metro document states that Trimet will need to completely replace all of the Barbur Blvd bridges south of downtown. They will also require excavation cuts along the hill, and massive retaining walls ~40' or higher to prevent landslides.

By comparison, the I-5 Iowa st. bridge replacement project was roughly the same length as Barbur along the hillside, and was likely similar in scope to what would be required for a MAX line.

It cost $38 million.



http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/REGION1/pages/iowaviaduct/index.aspx

-------------

By comparison, Metro is estimating what, $3.1 billion for a tunnel? That seems laughably high. Which is way, way higher than even the Seattle University link light rail subway, which is $1.9 billion for 3 miles.

I suspect they are taking worst-case scenario numbers, padding them with worst-case scenario budget overruns, doubling the number, and then downplaying the ridership numbers.

[hat]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

If I'm exaggerating it's only by a tiny amount. The land within the walk shed along inner SW Barbur is very steep, and is mostly zoned as open space or as low density residential. Much of it also has environmental conservation or protection overlays, which make development difficult to impossible.

Given that's it's comparatively flat, the Lair Hill neighborhood might at first glance look like it would be suitable for development, but that leads to the question of why there isn't lots of development going on there now, given that it already has pretty good bus service and is within easy walking / cycling distance of downtown. Well, the answer is that most of it is in the South Portland historic district. An apartment building that was proposed on SW Barbur & 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 appears to have died, likely because the Historic Landmarks Commission made it very clear that they had no intention of approving it.

These are mostly zoning issues, and the Zoning Code can of course be changed; Amanda Fritz didn't bring it down from Mt Tabor on stone tablets. But I seriously doubt that neighborhood has an appetite for substantial up zoning.

Well said Mac. Since Lair Hill is a historical neighborhood, the HLC has its say. But I think the neighborhood has a some much more serious challenges vis a vis its location between several high traffic corridors. Calling it a neighborhood has been a stretch ever since Naito, the Ross Island ramps, and I-5 were built.

The neighborhood was just ok when I worked for MercyCorps years ago, i.e. it had a modicum of walkable locations. But it doesn't really have an identity or a street where people can eat or shop (Piroshki & A Pickle on Corbett was fantastic, but it may have left).

The MAX (typically has pared streets down to one lane each way as on Interstate, a modest success), in addition to the redesign of the Ross Island bridge ramps, will help this area out a lot. It's possible that rezoning will follow if this indeed houses next MAX corridor. And, as unfortunate as that might be, it will certainly solve the slew of problems not limited to the walking/biking on the Barbur bridges further south. Who knows, maybe even Gibbs and/or Corbett will turn into a hot new strip given the right foot traffic and station design.

[Encolpius]

Great explanation about the difficulties with historic preservation, neighborhood resistance, and the engineering challenges along Barbur. In spite of all this, I have to believe this can be a dense and thriving neighborhood some day! Putting a MAX line through Lair Hill would be a good test of whether planners can now design roads that integrate this neighborhood rather than further destroying and isolating it.

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Not according to the internet:

14. The deepest station is Hampstead on the Northern line, which runs down to 58.5 metres.
15. In Central London the deepest station below street level is also the Northern line. It is the DLR concourse at Bank, which is 41.4 metres below.

The deepest station in the world is in Kiev, at 105 meters.

Yes, I was utterly mistaken about that! I was looking at spreadsheet figures that I didn't know how to read properly -- laymen, beware tunnel datum! Anyway, the fact still is, some of these stations are quite deep and move most passengers by escalator. (Hampstead has only elevators, but these are surprisingly slow and rather uncomfortable at peak times. At Bank you could take either two elevators or three escalators to get from the Ticket Hall to the DLR platform). Three flights of escalators don't evidently faze the average cockney commuter, who stands to the right; those in a greater hurry use the left.

Now: the escalator ride up Marquam Hill isn't a quarter of a mile, it's more like 730', according to the figures you cited, 721' horizontal by 115' vertical, and the theorem of Pythagoras. Now, if as you say it takes roughly 20 min to travel 2,600' on Hong Kong's system, ascending 730' should take your average commuter around six, not 15.

[PlanningProfessor]

It does seem short sighted to remove the alignment serving the biggest employment center in the corridor at this stage of the process. It may not be worth it in the end (it will no doubt be REALLY expensive), but it's certainly worthy of evaluation beyond the superficial analysis we see in the staff report.

Two observations from the staff recommendations:

First, the selective use of quotes, etc. to justify the recommendation against the tunnel option seem incredibly flimsy. What about the 78% and 65% who stated the most important outcomes of the Southwest Corridor Project are "fast, reliable transit travel times," and "increased access to employment and education centers in the corridor" versus the 28% who were more concerned about cost? But instead we get the vague "many people online and in-person felt that the high cost of tunnels made them a non-viable option." How many?

Second, it appears that at some point staff replaced a short Marquam Hill tunnel option with a longer one that would serve Hillsdale (see map on page 19). The shorter tunnel looks to be 1/4 to 1/3 the length of the longer Hillsdale option. Yet it appears that only the cost estimate for the long tunnel was ever considered. Certainly the cost of tunneling isn't simply a linear relationship with length, but how much cheaper would the shorter option be? These are the sorts of things that should be explored in a more thorough alternatives analysis rather than being dismissed at this stage of the process.

This isn't a project I've been following closely, so I'm hoping others can chime in with their probably more informed perspective on these two points. Thanks.

[maccoinnich]

No deep tunnel for OHSU: Southwest Corridor plan




A high-capacity transit tunnel deep beneath Oregon Health & Science University will not be part of the so-called Southwest Corridor transportation alignment.

A committee leading the study effort voted unanimously Monday to drop both that tunnel and another one serving the Hillsdale area of southwest Portland from further consideration.

The decisions, both unanimous, marked an important step forward in devising a plan to improve travel between downtown Portland and the fast-growing cities of Tigard, Tualatin and Sherwood.

"These are really important decisions in determining what this corridor will eventually look like," Metro Councilor Craig Dirksen said. "We are definitely a lot farther down the road."

...continues at the Oregonian.

[65MAX]

HUGE mistake to bypass OHSU. Incredibly short-sighted.

The only way to justify building a SW Corridor at all now is to have a high-speed, high capacity inclined elevator system (funicular) from the west side of Barbur Blvd to a joint transit station with the top of the aerial tram. That's the ONLY way to serve OHSU without a bored tunnel. Making everybody hike 10-15 minutes from Naito would be absolutely worthless. Like I said, not even worth building at all.

[JordanL]

What exactly will a MAX line on Barbur serve between Hamilton and Terwilliger? Not only is that land not currently used for much, it CAN'T be used for much.

I get it's cheaper, but spending $10 on nothing is still more of a waste than lots of money on something.

[trail_blazers_7]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

HUGE mistake to bypass OHSU. Incredibly short-sighted.

The only way to justify building a SW Corridor at all now is to have a high-speed, high capacity inclined elevator system (funicular) from the west side of Barbur Blvd to a joint transit station with the top of the aerial tram. That's the ONLY way to serve OHSU without a bored tunnel. Making everybody hike 10-15 minutes from Naito would be absolutely worthless. Like I said, not even worth building at all.

I think some of the major factors regarding the decision to skip an OHSU tunnel was 1) the multiple years of construction 2) no real staging area for said construction on Marquam hill 3) the construction would be not only noisy, but it would also create vibrations, not a great idea when you consider this would be taking place under a hospital where surgeries are being performed.

As a former resident of Marquam hill, it is certainly busy with both cars and standing room only buses. A MAX station there would certainly generate extremely high ridership, but logistically it's almost impossible.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by trail_blazers_7

I think some of the major factors regarding the decision to skip an OHSU tunnel was 1) the multiple years of construction 2) no real staging area for said construction on Marquam hill 3) the construction would be not only noisy, but it would also create vibrations, not a great idea when you consider this would be taking place under a hospital where surgeries are being performed.

As a former resident of Marquam hill, it is certainly busy with both cars and standing room only buses. A MAX station there would certainly generate extremely high ridership, but logistically it's almost impossible.

I am not sure I buy this, though I am not saying you are wrong, I just think a line could be run either through the hill under Terwilliger with a station connected to OHSU like it is with the zoo. Or another idea would be running the line to the west of OHSU underneath the residential neighborhood that sits up on top of the hill, and have the station be on Gibbs St.

I think it is important for the SW line to have as high of ridership as possible, and running a light rail line that connects to both OHSU and Hillsdale is key to its success.

[trail_blazers_7]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I am not sure I buy this, though I am not saying you are wrong, I just think a line could be run either through the hill under Terwilliger with a station connected to OHSU like it is with the zoo. Or another idea would be running the line to the west of OHSU underneath the residential neighborhood that sits up on top of the hill, and have the station be on Gibbs St.

I think it is important for the SW line to have as high of ridership as possible, and running a light rail line that connects to both OHSU and Hillsdale is key to its success.

I pulled that info from Metro's website. I should have cited it, my bad

http://www.oregonmetro.gov/sites/default/files/SWCP-July2015-StaffRecommendations.pdf
It's on pg. 13

I agree that ridership is critical for this line, especially to sell it politically. A tunnel would be the best option without a doubt, the idea of moving the station up Gibbs to the residential area is actually a pretty good idea.
The price tag of a tunnel would be a tough sell as well.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by trail_blazers_7

I pulled that info from Metro's website. I should have cited it, my bad

http://www.oregonmetro.gov/sites/default/files/SWCP-July2015-StaffRecommendations.pdf
It's on pg. 13

I agree that ridership is critical for this line, especially to sell it politically. A tunnel would be the best option without a doubt, the idea of moving the station up Gibbs to the residential area is actually a pretty good idea.
The price tag of a tunnel would be a tough sell as well.

Thanks for the link, I don't remember ever seeing this....but it has been a busy summer, so I probably just missed it when it came out. Just from what I read on pg 13, it definitely sounds like the tunnel idea is dead. That was pretty much the only real chance of a subway tunnel in Portland for anyone hoping for a subway.

It does sound like they are still considering making sure there is some sort of connection to OHSU. I would imagine a people mover corridor of some sort like what is at airports could work for a light rail connection. It would still require some sort of heavy construction, but I could see it working.


I just hope with the success of the Orange Line, that Trimet realizes the importance of keeping the system uniformed and going with Light Rail as the primary mode of transit through the SW Corridor. I think anything less won't have the same impact that a new light rail line has.

[trail_blazers_7]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Thanks for the link, I don't remember ever seeing this....but it has been a busy summer, so I probably just missed it when it came out. Just from what I read on pg 13, it definitely sounds like the tunnel idea is dead. That was pretty much the only real chance of a subway tunnel in Portland for anyone hoping for a subway.

It does sound like they are still considering making sure there is some sort of connection to OHSU. I would imagine a people mover corridor of some sort like what is at airports could work for a light rail connection. It would still require some sort of heavy construction, but I could see it working.


I just hope with the success of the Orange Line, that Trimet realizes the importance of keeping the system uniformed and going with Light Rail as the primary mode of transit through the SW Corridor. I think anything less won't have the same impact that a new light rail line has.

Yeah the tunnel is officially dead. They're still studying a tunnel for PCC and the mode is yet to be determined. Supposedly that will all be finalized next year. Even then it only amounts to a recommendation. But it's a step in the right direction.
I've been following the SW corridor pretty closely since I live off Barbur. It would be a shame to see the corridor get BRT as a cost saving measure. In reality, if BRT is to be built to the same standards as LRT the costs come out pretty close. The Division/Powell corridor is likely to be BRT, hopefully that doesn't set a precedent. Tigard residents would have to vote if LRT is to go in, hopefully the same vitriol shown in Clackamas county is absent; hard to imagine justifying a line that stops at PCC without serving the Tigard triangle.

[RED_PDXer]

I feel like the past approach to planning and building "high-capacity" transit in this region is no longer viable. To my understanding, a SW Corridor project isn't viable without some sort of regional finance package. If the feds are only going to pick up 50% of the project cost and we're looking at $2 billion plus project, how do you get the region to support increased taxes for one project that replaces an already very good bus network? Suburb to suburb travel patterns continue to increase and we have virtually no good transit connections between east and west of the Willamette River in the southern part of the region. I really think the region is missing the boat by not pursuing a more comprehensive HCT development package.

I also don't think it makes sense to continue to funnel all transit and travel through downtown Portland. Perhaps the politics isn't ripe with Clackamas County Commission still so backwards, but I would think that's gotta change back to normal soon. What we need is some real new or improved transit connections that will get people out of their cars. Parking charges in downtown Portland already get most people out of their cars, so continuing to feed the public radial HCT lines just doesn't provide much bang for the buck. How about a transit connection that saves a bunch of time for suburb to suburb connections (and 30 minute WES frequency isn't what I'm talking about). That's the end of my rant..

[cityscapes]

Originally Posted by RED_PDXer

I feel like the past approach to planning and building "high-capacity" transit in this region is no longer viable. To my understanding, a SW Corridor project isn't viable without some sort of regional finance package. If the feds are only going to pick up 50% of the project cost and we're looking at $2 billion plus project, how do you get the region to support increased taxes for one project that replaces an already very good bus network? Suburb to suburb travel patterns continue to increase and we have virtually no good transit connections between east and west of the Willamette River in the southern part of the region. I really think the region is missing the boat by not pursuing a more comprehensive HCT development package.

I also don't think it makes sense to continue to funnel all transit and travel through downtown Portland. Perhaps the politics isn't ripe with Clackamas County Commission still so backwards, but I would think that's gotta change back to normal soon. What we need is some real new or improved transit connections that will get people out of their cars. Parking charges in downtown Portland already get most people out of their cars, so continuing to feed the public radial HCT lines just doesn't provide much bang for the buck. How about a transit connection that saves a bunch of time for suburb to suburb connections (and 30 minute WES frequency isn't what I'm talking about). That's the end of my rant..

I really agree with what you're getting at here. The SW corridor is the last big piece of the MAX system that needs to be built but there are many other things the metro region needs to address in terms of all modes of transportation.

Having first visited Portland in 2008 and having lived here twice now I feel like the bicycle infrastructure has not grown or improved much while other cities keep evolving and developing cycle infrastructure. The bike amenities as part of the Orange line are fantastic but I was expecting more of that around the region and it hasn't really happened to the extent I thought it would.

The bus system should be made more efficient. I really like the cashless system in London it greatly accelerated the boarding process and reduced lingering at stops. Hopefully Trimet implements this when they get their new payment system in place. I also think 15 minute frequencies are too far apart to get people to use busses when they often come early, late, or not at all depending on the day. Even if they increased the frequent service lines to 10 minutes or better this would do a lot to get people out of their cars and onto the transit system.

Working in Washington County I deal with the fact that there are no good north-south routes through the area. I would never advocate for a western freeway bypass but there should be at least one continuous arterial road that traverses the developed parts of the county. There are also not many east west connections in the southern part of the metro area which pushes too much local traffic onto I-205 and the Sellwood bridge is an issue because it is poorly linked to I-5.

Traffic is continually getting worse and there is little room to widen freeways which wouldn't even accomplish much because of induced demand. One of the things I've realized is that traffic is generally okay but backs up at all the freeway interchanges so much that it has a ripple effect down the rest of the freeway causing long backups. One of the things that needs to be done is a complete redesign of the merging lanes and ramps that connect all the major freeways in the city center. I say this rather than burying I-5 through the CEID because it's a quicker more viable fix to the situation.

A lot of the sidewalks are in poor shape, street signs across the metro area are completely illegible or non-existant, many local roads urgently need to be repaved and these things should be addressed too. It's really hard to figure out where you're going when there's barely any street signs that one can read as you drive down the street getting rattled by potholes.

As the MAX system expands we will eventually have to find a way to get more trains across the Steel Bridge faster than they do now. The I-5 bridge to Vancouver should be replaced. The list goes on.

I can't think of any reasonable solutions to all the Portland area transportation problems when the entire state and country in general is plagued with deficient infrastructure and a lot of people who don't want to pay for necessary improvements through higher taxes.

[urbanlife]

There is definitely going to be either a replacement of the Steel Bridge or another Tillicum Crossing type bridge by the Steel Bridge for light rail to move through more efficiently.

[jaxg8r1]

I would love to see a comprehensive bond measure get on the ballot for next years election...something similar to what Denver did with their RTD system a few years ago. I know I'm happy to pay more when I see what the money is going for and a "grand vision" style proposal.

I think its also critical, as mentioned above, to make more suburb to suburb connections that bypass downtown. And in an ideal world, I'd love to see MAX buried in tunnels through downtown, eliminate some stops, and be able to get through downtown in half the time.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by jaxg8r1

I would love to see a comprehensive bond measure get on the ballot for next years election...something similar to what Denver did with their RTD system a few years ago. I know I'm happy to pay more when I see what the money is going for and a "grand vision" style proposal.

I think its also critical, as mentioned above, to make more suburb to suburb connections that bypass downtown. And in an ideal world, I'd love to see MAX buried in tunnels through downtown, eliminate some stops, and be able to get through downtown in half the time.

The eliminating of stops probably won't happen....though there are a few that could have been consolidated, but that is really with the east/west lines through downtown. Which I really question how many are commuting from the east to the west and vice versa.

As for more suburb to suburb rail, I think what we need to see first is more lines on the westside because currently we only really have one rail line on the west side because the Red and Blue lines both run on the same tracks. On the flip side, the eastside currently has 5 rail lines running. Adding more rail lines to the westside would aid with this call for more suburb to suburb connections.

A bypass of downtown via rail will probably never happen simply because I don't think any city in the US bypasses its downtown when using rail. That is too much of an investment to take that kind of risk.

Which of course we all know the tunnel idea will never happen if they aren't willing to do any tunnel work for the SW Line, if/and when that happens. That would be the best candidate for a tunnel and a great way to propose a future tunnel through downtown. In Portland, rail will always be at surface level.

I do agree with you, I would gladly vote for a bond measure that would help push rail further in the Portland Metro. It is a key part to our infrastructure and needs to grow.

[RED_PDXer]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

As for more suburb to suburb rail, I think what we need to see first is more lines on the westside because currently we only really have one rail line on the west side because the Red and Blue lines both run on the same tracks. On the flip side, the eastside currently has 5 rail lines running. Adding more rail lines to the westside would aid with this call for more suburb to suburb connections.

A bypass of downtown via rail will probably never happen simply because I don't think any city in the US bypasses its downtown when using rail. That is too much of an investment to take that kind of risk.

Two things. There are two rail lines on the westside if you include WES, which perhaps you left out on purpose because it's not MAX. Also, the Orange Line could just as easily serve Lake Oswego with an extension over the so-called "Forgotten" Bridge between Milwaukie and Lake Oswego. A fast circumferential line between northern Clackamas County, SE Washington County, and Hillsboro would do more for changing commuting patterns than any additional radial lines from downtown. I would actually prefer a commuter rail serve this function because it would have fewer stops, cost substantially less, and serve the needs of an auto-centric part of the region which really just needs an alternative to driving to get to and from work. One of the problems with WES is how limited of an area it serves, but for the 2,000 or so people that use it daily, it provides a really attractive alternative to Hwy 217.

I'm just suggesting that something like that coupled with a SW corridor would be far more successful at a regional vote than a limited corridor project with little vision. Of course, we could be even more comprehensive and include targeted bus service improvements as well, such as bus only lanes leading into and out of downtown.

LA has existing and planned high capacity transit lines that don't go downtown.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by RED_PDXer

Two things. There are two rail lines on the westside if you include WES, which perhaps you left out on purpose because it's not MAX. Also, the Orange Line could just as easily serve Lake Oswego with an extension over the so-called "Forgotten" Bridge between Milwaukie and Lake Oswego. A fast circumferential line between northern Clackamas County, SE Washington County, and Hillsboro would do more for changing commuting patterns than any additional radial lines from downtown. I would actually prefer a commuter rail serve this function because it would have fewer stops, cost substantially less, and serve the needs of an auto-centric part of the region which really just needs an alternative to driving to get to and from work. One of the problems with WES is how limited of an area it serves, but for the 2,000 or so people that use it daily, it provides a really attractive alternative to Hwy 217.

I'm just suggesting that something like that coupled with a SW corridor would be far more successful at a regional vote than a limited corridor project with little vision. Of course, we could be even more comprehensive and include targeted bus service improvements as well, such as bus only lanes leading into and out of downtown.

LA has existing and planned high capacity transit lines that don't go downtown.

Yep, I left out the WES for a reason, the Red Line should have just been run down that route to be the second rail line for the westside. It would have eliminated the need for transferring when going downtown. It could have also had a much higher ridership as well.

I don't see the Orange Line going that route at all because just to get it across the river it would have to go through a populated neighborhood on the Clackamas County/Milwaukie side, and then it would be met with even greater resistance on the Lake Oswego side who don't even want a building over two stories in their downtown.

Based on how the Orange Line is designed at the end, seeing it was suppose to go to Oregon City, I have a feeling it won't go any further than its current ending spot. Though as the opinions of light rail change in Clackamas County, then it might eventually get extended down in the future.

Right now, I just see basically a 205 rail loop that you described to be a bit too risky for the cost, but I am not exactly sure what kind of route you are thinking.

LA would be one of the few cities that has rail lines that bypass downtown, but then again LA is a different kind of beast filled with a metro that has several downtowns and people commuting in so many different directions there.

[2oh1]

WES is a perfect example of what happens when you don't connect a rail line to downtown. You effectively cut off the most used connecting point for rail, which means people can't conveniently do a bus-to-WES combo. Instead, they'd have to go bus-to-MAX-to-WES, and that's not convenient, nor is it even viable.