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  #5781  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2015, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innov8 View Post
Across J street, St. Francis Manor stands 9 floors and was built in 1978. I don't see
this project having trouble being built as proposed unless the market starts to stall
or reverses. Timing is everything... how many proposals big and small were
left on the drawing board last round? The L Street Lofts are still recovering.
EXACTLY!! The biggest obstacle to Sacramento's upward growth and increased density has been the market, not busy-body activists.
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  #5782  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 3:43 AM
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Tell that to most of the folks here, who seem to think the busy-body activists call the shots, and high-rises would shoot up from the ground like Jack's beanstalk if it wasn't for a half-dozen senior citizens writing angry letters to City Hall.
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  #5783  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 4:26 AM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is offline
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To borrow a familiar phrase from the previous page, maybe it's both.
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  #5784  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 2:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatDarnSacramentan View Post
To borrow a familiar phrase from the previous page, maybe it's both.
I think it's a combination of factors. However, if were to assign each factor a weight, out of 100 total, I'd give the market 99 and let the rest fight over the remainder.

The market (nature) always wins.
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  #5785  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 7:40 PM
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Yes, well said snfenoc. To expand on this a little, Sacramento developments notoriously
slow in getting out of the gates when the markets ready for growth. While other cities
in CA have developers beginning to step forward with proposals, developers in
Sacramento don’t quite feel comfortable in doing so. In the last two cycles the lag
times been about 1 ½ to 2 years. Up until 6 years ago the approval process with the
city also took 1 ½ to 2 years. On the other hand, in 1988 neighborhood activists and
the Environmental Council of Sacramento helped kill 8 high-rises, 6 along R Street up
to 39 stories and two L Street as tall as 503’. The City Council caved to their demands
and imposed a building moratorium while settling concerns which was only supposed to
last for one year. It ended up lasting nearly three years with the result of all eight
towers plans being abandon. In addition, the city did their best to kill the proposed
Hallmark Tower at 503’ on L Street by enacting the Capitol View Protection Corridor
while the Hallmark Tower was over one year into the entitlement process. Just think,
with both the Renaissance Tower completed in 1989 and Library Tower completed in
1991 and these 8 additional towers, the skyline would look much different today.
After that only the EPA building and Federal Courthouse on I Street were built in the 1990’s.

What can you say? The Councilmembers at City Hall have a record that’s not very
positive, and this goes back decades. As a reaction as to how other developers have
been treated in the past, developers who have interest in the city tend to shy away.
I think the city has tried to make up for it by offering subsidy here and there, most new
development downtown seem to have subsidies involved.
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  #5786  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 7:54 PM
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You say "well said", then you go into directly disputing his claim that it is 99% market based (at least in decades past), which still may have lingering effects that are slowly (too slowly) diminishing.

With that said, while we still have the wburg's plagging the city attempting to kill anything over 30ft, they have not been successful with the Arena, the Arena Tower, Sacramento Commons, or any of the 6 floor midrises sprouting all over midtown (although addmitly the 6 floor midrises have less opposition).

The next test will be this project "Yamanee", as far as developer friendliness in the city council and planning commission. Maybe after this gets quickly approved without fuss (from the council, not wburg, we know him and his STOP buddies will be protesting this), it will signal developers that finally central city Sacramento is open for business. If the market is still hot in 2017 maybe that is when we will finally see the flood of proposals.
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  #5787  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 8:33 PM
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Majin, of all the proposal that have rolled in over the year a small percentage have
been picked off by activists. I did not diminish what snfenoc said, if anything I put the
true fault on the city council and how the city has operated.

For all the squawking you do on here Majin, why aren't you more active at City Hall and
with the Commissions? What’s said here has very little impact on anyone at City Council
and Planning Commission. In the 12 years you have been a member on SSP, your
opinion appears to be more for shock value than anything else. Listing to you take aim
at wburg gets old, as if badgering him on here makes your opinion stronger, which it
does not. I think most people here understand how you operate.

To improve the city you first have to appreciate Sacramento for what it is.
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  #5788  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innov8 View Post
I did not diminish what snfenoc said, if anything I put the
true fault on the city council and how the city has operated.
That is double speak. How the city council and the city has operated is not market based. It's politically based. I'm assuming when snfenoc is saying 99% market based, he means projects failing on their own financial merits. The city council delaying a product indefinitely until the developer pulls out is not a project failing on it's financial merits. Or the council/planning commissions making so many tweaks and changes (such as changing the height, design, inserting requirements for low incoming housing) etc is also not projects failing on their own financial merits.
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  #5789  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 9:10 PM
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Sheesh, in the last cycle the below projects failed because of the market, can you tell
me others that failed by activist? Did I miss any?

The Metropolitan
The Towers
The Epic
Aura
Capitol Grand
Library Lofts
700i
B Street Theater
East End Gateway 1
Jibboom Street Power Station
K Street Towers
Asian Trade Center
K Street Towers
Meridain II
Riverfront Docks
Cathedral Square
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  #5790  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 9:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innov8 View Post
Sheesh, in the last cycle the below projects failed because of the market, can you tell
me others that failed by activist? Did I miss any?

The Metropolitan
The Towers
The Epic
Aura
Capitol Grand
Library Lofts
700i
B Street Theater
East End Gateway 1
Jibboom Street Power Station
K Street Towers
Asian Trade Center
K Street Towers
Meridain II
Riverfront Docks
Cathedral Square
Did you miss the part where I said "at least in previous decades"? I was referring to your own post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by innov8 View Post
On the other hand, in 1988 neighborhood activists and
the Environmental Council of Sacramento helped kill 8 high-rises, 6 along R Street up
to 39 stories and two L Street as tall as 503’. The City Council caved to their demands
and imposed a building moratorium while settling concerns which was only supposed to
last for one year. It ended up lasting nearly three years with the result of all eight
towers plans being abandon. In addition, the city did their best to kill the proposed
Hallmark Tower at 503’ on L Street by enacting the Capitol View Protection Corridor
while the Hallmark Tower was over one year into the entitlement process. Just think,
with both the Renaissance Tower completed in 1989 and Library Tower completed in
1991 and these 8 additional towers, the skyline would look much different today.
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  #5791  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin View Post
You say "well said", then you go into directly disputing his claim that it is 99% market based (at least in decades past), which still may have lingering effects that are slowly (too slowly) diminishing.

With that said, while we still have the wburg's plagging the city attempting to kill anything over 30ft, they have not been successful with the Arena, the Arena Tower, Sacramento Commons, or any of the 6 floor midrises sprouting all over midtown (although addmitly the 6 floor midrises have less opposition).

The next test will be this project "Yamanee", as far as developer friendliness in the city council and planning commission. Maybe after this gets quickly approved without fuss (from the council, not wburg, we know him and his STOP buddies will be protesting this), it will signal developers that finally central city Sacramento is open for business. If the market is still hot in 2017 maybe that is when we will finally see the flood of proposals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin View Post
That is double speak. How the city council and the city has operated is not market based. It's politically based. I'm assuming when snfenoc is saying 99% market based, he means projects failing on their own financial merits. The city council delaying a product indefinitely until the developer pulls out is not a project failing on it's financial merits. Or the council/planning commissions making so many tweaks and changes (such as changing the height, design, inserting requirements for low incoming housing) etc is also not projects failing on their own financial merits.
I'm not sure I want to compare the Sacramento of 25 years ago to the Sacramento of today - the market has developed and city government has become much more of a rubber stamp for development since then.

While I was speaking more in terms of recent history, I still think the market had a lot of control, even 25 years ago. NIMBY activists are given more credit for killing those old proposals than they deserve. Yes, political opposition may have slowed things down and windows of opportunity may have closed...MAYBE. However, I really doubt a view corridor and a building moratorium did all that much. I'll bet those old proposals would have died on the vine, anyway. Remember, we had a pretty major recession brewing in the late 80s that went into the early 90s.

Now, If we look at the recent dead projects, the city acted as a major facilitator...they had more than enough support politically and even received huge subsidies. For example, the Towers on Crapitol Mall was hailed by the city and the new media. Plus, the project would have received a decent subsidy for the hotel portion had it moved forward. YET it still failed.

I'm sorry, but we just don't have a boogie man, here. EVERY project has to deal with detractors...it's the cost of doing business. If a proposal can't survive a little resistance (even if that resistance is silly and unacceptable in a country that supposedly values property rights), what good is it? Besides, why shouldn't developer consider the concerns of neighbors and historians? They might have something to add that makes a proposal MORE successful.
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  #5792  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2015, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snfenoc View Post
I'm not sure I want to compare the Sacramento of 25 years ago to the Sacramento of today - the market has developed and city government has become much more of a rubber stamp for development since then.

While I was speaking more in terms of recent history, I still think the market had a lot of control, even 25 years ago. NIMBY activists are given more credit for killing those old proposals than they deserve. Yes, political opposition may have slowed things down and windows of opportunity may have closed...MAYBE. However, I really doubt a view corridor and a building moratorium did all that much. I'll bet those old proposals would have died on the vine, anyway. Remember, we had a pretty major recession brewing in the late 80s that went into the early 90s.

Now, If we look at the recent dead projects, the city acted as a major facilitator...they had more than enough support politically and even received huge subsidies. For example, the Towers on Crapitol Mall was hailed by the city and the new media. Plus, the project would have received a decent subsidy for the hotel portion had it moved forward. YET it still failed.

I'm sorry, but we just don't have a boogie man, here. EVERY project has to deal with detractors...it's the cost of doing business. If a proposal can't survive a little resistance (even if that resistance is silly and unacceptable in a country that supposedly values property rights), what good is it? Besides, why shouldn't developer consider the concerns of neighbors and historians? They might have something to add that makes a proposal MORE successful.
They key word in there is "might". I've seen in a few cases where that could be true. But the majority of the time, the activists are out to kill a project by any means necessary. They know all the tricks needed to drag something out long enough to kill the project off.

Funny comment about property rights. From another point of view. You could own some property and want to build your dream project. Then you have to deal with people trying to kill it or force it to look like the project they wanted - no matter that it costs you more. Then you might be wondering what happened to your rights?
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  #5793  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2015, 4:02 AM
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The Capitol View Protection Act was a law passed by the state of California, not the city of Sacramento.

I was a teenager living a few hundred miles away at the time, but folks I know who were there talk about the "Battle of R Street" a bit differently. The conflict was between two competing visions, the developer vision of building another row of sterile office buildings that would go dead at 5 PM on R Street, or a mixed-use neighborhood where the old industrial buildings would be used for housing and businesses and art spaces, with new neighborhood buildings to fill in the gaps where older industrial buildings had been leveled already. These weren't planned as downtown residential towers, as the developers were the same folks eagerly building suburbs in South Natomas and Rancho Cordova. These R Street highrises were planned as pure office development, with the people who worked in those offices driving out to the suburbs every night. If the developers had won, R Street might have some more beige office buildings, but they'd go as dead after office hours as the rest of the office buildings north of R Street and Capitol Mall. And who thinks Capitol Mall and the O Street office building district between 7th-12th is a rousing success of urban vitality?

25 years later, the city of Sacramento and local developers are all quite eager to take credit for the success of the R Street corridor, with the success of projects like SoCap Lofts, WAL, 2500 R, Perfection Bakery, and forthcoming projects at Ice Blocks, B&G Building and more on the way. And in many ways, it is a younger and more creative generation of developers and architects who can take much of the credit for a lot of the new development that their predecessors thought was a waste of money--and some of those architects were leaders of the groups opposing the office buildings! But it was really the plan and vision of those activists back in 1988, who were calling for a return to downtown living, neighborhood commerical and entertainment, mixed use neighborhoods, independence from the automobile, and all the stuff ULI and AIA crow about today, a quarter-century late to the party, but eager to say it was their idea all along.
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Last edited by wburg; Sep 19, 2015 at 4:18 AM.
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  #5794  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2015, 4:17 AM
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wburg I believe you and those people were sincere if they would of welcomed 40 story residential towers instead of 40 story office towers, but I would they would be just as hostile to resident towers.

You do remember Mr Bowtie who was also against 301 CM right?
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  #5795  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2015, 4:49 PM
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Exclusive: CADA looking at new mixed-use project downtown


Quote:
Capitol Area Development Authority is taking the first steps toward helping develop a mixed-used affordable housing project steps from Capitol Park downtown.
Next week, CADA’s board of directors will discuss entering a memorandum of understanding with Westminster Presbyterian Church. The MOU would enable the church and agency to explore developing a mixed-use project of up to 80 units on what’s now a parking lot on the northeast corner of 13th and O streets.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/ne...da-looking-at-new-mixed-use-project.html



Any idea approximately how many stories this would have to be to accommodate 80 units and retail/commercial use?
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  #5796  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 12:07 AM
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Considering it uses up the entire half-block, maybe 5 or 6 stories--taller than that and you have to use more expensive building methods. Legado de Ravel is two half-blocks that adds up to 84 units, my guess is these will be a bit smaller and feature less parking so probably not much taller.
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  #5797  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
The Capitol View Protection Act was a law passed by the state of California, not the city of Sacramento.
The Capitol View Protection Act is a State law but before it was a state law
the city council placed height restrictions a couple years in advanced, it was
lobbied by the City Council, Mayor Anne Rudin and others in the city to
become a State law shortly after. Source, SacBee Feb. 28 1991.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
I was a teenager living a few hundred miles away at the time, but folks I know who were there talk about the "Battle of R Street" a bit differently. The conflict was between two competing visions, the developer vision of building another row of sterile office buildings that would go dead at 5 PM on R Street, or a mixed-use neighborhood where the old industrial buildings would be used for housing and businesses and art spaces, with new neighborhood buildings to fill in the gaps where older industrial buildings had been leveled already. These weren't planned as downtown residential towers, as the developers were the same folks eagerly building suburbs in South Natomas and Rancho Cordova. These R Street highrises were planned as pure office development, with the people who worked in those offices driving out to the suburbs every night. If the developers had won, R Street might have some more beige office buildings, but they'd go as dead after office hours as the rest of the office buildings north of R Street and Capitol Mall. And who thinks Capitol Mall and the O Street office building district between 7th-12th is a rousing success of urban vitality?
25 years later, the city of Sacramento and local developers are all quite eager to take credit for the success of the R Street corridor, with the success of projects like SoCap Lofts, WAL, 2500 R, Perfection Bakery, and forthcoming projects at Ice Blocks, B&G Building and more on the way. And in many ways, it is a younger and more creative generation of developers and architects who can take much of the credit for a lot of the new development that their predecessors thought was a waste of money--and some of those architects were leaders of the groups opposing the office buildings! But it was really the plan and vision of those activists back in 1988, who were calling for a return to downtown living, neighborhood commerical and entertainment, mixed use neighborhoods, independence from the automobile, and all the stuff ULI and AIA crow about today, a quarter-century late to the party, but eager to say it was their idea all along.
Where do you get this stuff wburg? Much of what you said is purely made up
about the R Street towers proposals between I-5 and 8th streets… all of
which are still surface parking and two warehouses today. The California
Capitol Center had four towers on two blocks between 3rd & 5th from 29 to
39 floors. The project included a 1.5 million sf office, 400 room hotel and
4,300 to 7,500 nearby housing units. My source for this info is the The
SacBee Oct. 19, 1988. The true reason activates focused on this project is
explained by this June 29, 1989 SacBee story called “Offices would cast tall
shadow”. Two other proposals for R Street were the River Tower at Q & 2nd
was to be 460ft 34 story tower with 20 apartments on the top two floors.
The site for River Tower today is still surface parking lot and warehouse, just
like it was back then. The 8th high-rise proposal was the Golden State
Tower on the corner of 7th & 8th on Q Street 32 floors. This site today is
also still a surface parking lot and Tom’s Automotive. As I have
demonstrated, this was not “pure office development” as you claimed, very
much the opposite. Much of what you’re talking about accruing 25 years
later has happen on R Street is from 10th street on up while the above
proposals would have filled mostly surface parking lots the State created
back in the 50’s and 60’s by clearing neighborhood for future state office development.
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  #5798  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 7:03 PM
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It should be noted that the State did manage to build one site on R street. Between 15th and 16th, Q and S is a state complex. It does inject some employment into the area, but like most State buildings it is devoid of street life.

There were clearly planning on demoing the ICE Blocks site for more State buildings. I believe this complex being built is what promoted the current R street plan to preserve the industrial character. .
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  #5799  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Considering it uses up the entire half-block, maybe 5 or 6 stories--taller than that and you have to use more expensive building methods. Legado de Ravel is two half-blocks that adds up to 84 units, my guess is these will be a bit smaller and feature less parking so probably not much taller.
I was thinking it was only on one corner. 5-6 stories is still good.
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  #5800  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2015, 4:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innov8 View Post
Where do you get this stuff wburg? Much of what you said is purely made up
about the R Street towers proposals between I-5 and 8th streets… all of
which are still surface parking and two warehouses today.
Where do you get this stuff? Between I-5 and 8th Street, in addition to the surface parking and two warehouses, there's a block of office buildings at 3rd and R, two blocks of CalPERS office buildings between 3rd and 5th, another couple of office buildings between 4th and 6th, SoCap Lofts between 6th and 7th. The offices that did get built along the R Street corridor are about as "vibrant" as the rest of Capitol Mall, but the stuff that's drawing lots of attention today is focused farther east

And I notice your line is drawn in the sand at 8th Street...wonder why you don't bother mentioning anything east of that point, which (again, as I was told) was where a lot of the focus of R Street was, between 8th and 16th and points east--and where the bulk of the projects I mentioned, recent and forthcoming, are located.

Quote:
The California
Capitol Center had four towers on two blocks between 3rd & 5th from 29 to
39 floors. The project included a 1.5 million sf office, 400 room hotel and
4,300 to 7,500 nearby housing units. My source for this info is the The
SacBee Oct. 19, 1988. The true reason activates focused on this project is
explained by this June 29, 1989 SacBee story called “Offices would cast tall
shadow”. Two other proposals for R Street were the River Tower at Q & 2nd
was to be 460ft 34 story tower with 20 apartments on the top two floors.
The site for River Tower today is still surface parking lot and warehouse, just
like it was back then. The 8th high-rise proposal was the Golden State
Tower on the corner of 7th & 8th on Q Street 32 floors. This site today is
also still a surface parking lot and Tom’s Automotive. As I have
demonstrated, this was not “pure office development” as you claimed, very
much the opposite. Much of what you’re talking about accruing 25 years
later has happen on R Street is from 10th street on up while the above
proposals would have filled mostly surface parking lots the State created
back in the 50’s and 60’s by clearing neighborhood for future state office development.
Well, as I said, I wasn't there at the time, nor was I interested in the subject back then, so I don't have the direct experience of older folks like you, most of what I know is what I have heard from much older activists who were involved in the effort. So, I should perform my due diligence and take a look at the Bee archives to see if what I was told reconciles what you're saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sacramento Bee, October 19, 1988
The two-inch thick environmental study examined how the downtown R Street area would be affected by development of California Capitol Center, a 1.5- million-square-foot project proposed last year by Union Pacific Realty. Capitol Center would include a hotel and three office towers, from 29 to 39 floors each, and would stretch from 3rd to 7th streets between Q and R streets.

It also examined the possible impact of Golden State Tower, a 360,000- square-foot office building proposed for the 700 block of Q Street by developers Richard and Joseph Benvenuti.
....
One of the biggest impacts singled out in the report is the increased need for downtown housing.

The two projects would bring 15,000 jobs -- and the need for 800 to 4,300 nearby housing units, depending on how many of the workers want to live downtown, the report said.
Okay, so the project didn't actually include any housing--it was assumed that it would create the need for nearby housing units, but no housing was planned for the project itself. That has been the downtown developer party line for a long time--if they just build enough office buildings, someone will get around to building lots of residential units nearby, at some indeterminate future point. If it's happening somewhere else and the developer building the offices isn't building the housing, it's not part of the project. So, this puts your claim that the project was to include 4300-7500 "nearby" housing units squarely into the "making stuff up" category.

As to this River Tower, well, I stand corrected. A two-story apartment building on top of a 32 story office building. So, not 100% office. Just, oh, 94% office. 20 apartments, 400 or so feet off the ground. I suppose it fits the 1980s idea of keeping the wealthy people as far as possible from the dangerous lumpenproletariat of the streets, but that little housing in such a big project wouldn't exactly do much to liven up the pedestrian experience.
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Last edited by wburg; Sep 22, 2015 at 4:42 AM.
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