General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[combusean]

You know, if all those buildings in Downtown were saved, let's play devil's advocate for a bit.

- Downtown probably wouldn't be a nice place to hang around if the Duce, Phoenix's skid row, wasn't replaced with the convention center. We'd have the issue of SF's Tenderloin hanging off the government district, which is rarely conducive to a healthy neighborhood.

- We'd have sixty-odd houses instead of the regional economic powerhouse of the biomedical district. For as bad as the biomed district is built, it's still better for the city than a bunch of old houses.

- No ASU downtown without the large lots to build that on.

- Probably not much of an arts scene if all the unwanted structures that crowd attracts were otherwise occupied. No First Friday.

- In fact, redeveloping anything would be a giant pain in the butt. Old downtown Phoenix just wasn't that dense, and we'd be stuck with an aging stock of structures and a "save this building" campaign any time somebody wanted to build something denser. Maybe that's a nice problem to have...

- Midtown would be the new downtown, but not built in any remotely cohesive manner like it is today. Just a quagmire of office towers, maybe a few more of them, with workers leaving quickly at the end of the day like downtown was in the 1970s - 2000s.

I could be wrong about some of this, but, maybe, just maybe, the demolitions that wreaked havoc on downtown weren't actually the worst thing that's happened to the area.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I don't know if that's possible. That's the best and most interesting thread ever made!

I agree! I'm old school, and love old American cities/history. Boston is my first love in this subject.

I've bookmarked it and have thoroughly read every page. I'm only on page 400+ right now because I slowly read/analyze every post. I love exploring old SoCal. SD has quite a bit of history and I've driven all around taking pics. I feel like there's so much out here that nobody even considers. Next time in SD, get away from the tourist zones and explore. It's shocking what exists!

PHX, I know you have some good stories to tell of Phoenix...Bring it on!

[soleri]

Originally Posted by combusean

You know, if all those buildings in Downtown were saved, let's play devil's advocate for a bit.

- Downtown probably wouldn't be a nice place to hang around if the Duce, Phoenix's skid row, wasn't replaced with the convention center. We'd have the issue of SF's Tenderloin hanging off the government district, which is rarely conducive to a healthy neighborhood.

- We'd have sixty-odd houses instead of the regional economic powerhouse of the biomedical district. For as bad as the biomed district is built, it's still better for the city than a bunch of old houses.

- No ASU downtown without the large lots to build that on.

- Probably not much of an arts scene if all the unwanted structures that crowd attracts were otherwise occupied. No First Friday.

- In fact, redeveloping anything would be a giant pain in the butt. Old downtown Phoenix just wasn't that dense, and we'd be stuck with an aging stock of structures and a "save this building" campaign any time somebody wanted to build something denser. Maybe that's a nice problem to have...

- Midtown would be the new downtown, but not built in any remotely cohesive manner like it is today. Just a quagmire of office towers, maybe a few more of them, with workers leaving quickly at the end of the day like downtown was in the 1970s - 2000s.

I could be wrong about some of this, but, maybe, just maybe, the demolitions that wreaked havoc on downtown weren't actually the worst thing that's happened to the area.

I understand your point but it's not either/or. The footprint of the CBD was too small when the post-war boom took off, which explains why it quickly leapfrogged up north Central. But suppose that instead of abandoning the old footprint, downtown had grown organically, expanding up Central with apartment buildings that in some cases replaced but didn't destroy the old fabric. It's not that every old building would have been saved but that a vital downtown would have survived Phoenix's huge boom.

Of course, all of this is counterfactual, so it's not proof of anything. The history of downtown takes place in a very specific context where cars quickly swamped a too-small urban area. What happened in Phoenix actually happened almost everywhere else in America, too. The difference was that Phoenix's old building stock was quickly depleted, resulting in a growing dead zone that still haunts it today. Other cities had enough old buildings left, partly because their booms were not as epic but also because they had much larger urban footprints. Downtown LA pretty much died as well but it's reviving today because it didn't level its old building stock.

For urban planners, the lesson is not in force-feeding whatever life remains in downtown with decorative light posts, large abstract sculptures, and park benches but in allowing enough urban tissue to grow without sterilizing it. This is why superblocks are really terrible - they don't allow the serendipity of small uses. The same goes for massive dead-zone projects like parking garages, sports arenas, and convention centers. If these have to be downtown, they need to be on the edge, not in the center. Downtown Phoenix still doesn't work precisely because we misunderstood a city as a composition of big set pieces instead of living tissue.

If downtown Phoenix is ever going to experience a real renaissance, it will happen because we finally decided a city is more than big - and tall! - buildings. It's human beings doing human things in relationship to one another. You can't fake this. You can't substitute special events for the ongoing day-to-day experiences of people living and working close to one another. Cities are about that. Giant suburbs pretending to be cities just throw buildings at the problem. That's not going to work. It never has.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

You know, if all those buildings in Downtown were saved, let's play devil's advocate for a bit.

- Downtown probably wouldn't be a nice place to hang around if the Duce, Phoenix's skid row, wasn't replaced with the convention center. We'd have the issue of SF's Tenderloin hanging off the government district, which is rarely conducive to a healthy neighborhood.

- We'd have sixty-odd houses instead of the regional economic powerhouse of the biomedical district. For as bad as the biomed district is built, it's still better for the city than a bunch of old houses.

- No ASU downtown without the large lots to build that on.

- Probably not much of an arts scene if all the unwanted structures that crowd attracts were otherwise occupied. No First Friday.

- In fact, redeveloping anything would be a giant pain in the butt. Old downtown Phoenix just wasn't that dense, and we'd be stuck with an aging stock of structures and a "save this building" campaign any time somebody wanted to build something denser. Maybe that's a nice problem to have...

- Midtown would be the new downtown, but not built in any remotely cohesive manner like it is today. Just a quagmire of office towers, maybe a few more of them, with workers leaving quickly at the end of the day like downtown was in the 1970s - 2000s.

I could be wrong about some of this, but, maybe, just maybe, the demolitions that wreaked havoc on downtown weren't actually the worst thing that's happened to the area.

I'm not sure I agree with every detail, but there are some good points here. For comparison, look just 20 miles to the east at Downtown Mesa. The center of the nation's 38th largest city is far more intact than Downtown Phoenix, but in some ways that makes apparent how small Mesa's urban core is compared to its vast sprawl. Downtown Mesa has its charms and should get even better with the arrival of light rail. Nevertheless, it looks and feels more like the center of a city of 50,000 than 500,000. Because there isn't all that much vacant or neglected land there, we're unlikely to see massive transformations like those that have occurred in Phoenix. Some replacement of old structures was probably necessary to allow Phoenix's core to scale for a city of 1.5 million. Of course, that trend went too far, but that doesn't mean the pendulum should swing in the other direction with hysteria about any loss of every old building, no matter how insignificant or isolated.

[dtnphx]

Such great discourse over the past few pages. I sense in so many of the posts the "what could have been" sadness that every Phoenician who pays attention to this kind of stuff feels. I think we're heading in the right direction though, or more so in that direction that I really think there's a synergy happening that will bring Phoenix into a renaissance at some point. I was just in LA area and you see such insane density, no empty lots. If you go to Tucson, try and find an empty lot (one where there was something built and torn down, you can't). It's a shame what leaders let developers do to this city. But then, look how excited we all were weeks ago when all these new projects were filling these pages, it got my heart rate soaring! Someone said it a few posts back, what's done is done and let's hope (and work toward) making this a better city. It's way better than it was 10 or 5 years ago.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by combusean

You know, if all those buildings in Downtown were saved, let's play devil's advocate for a bit.

- We'd have sixty-odd houses instead of the regional economic powerhouse of the biomedical district. For as bad as the biomed district is built, it's still better for the city than a bunch of old houses.

- No ASU downtown without the large lots to build that on.

- Probably not much of an arts scene if all the unwanted structures that crowd attracts were otherwise occupied. No First Friday.

I could be wrong about some of this, but, maybe, just maybe, the demolitions that wreaked havoc on downtown weren't actually the worst thing that's happened to the area.

I think it would be great if Phoenix could have an "Old Town" Phoenix (the current downtown area) and a separate CBD, similar to Paris and La Defense or something. Let's put this separate CBD down along the river - I would also have kept North Central/midtown/millionaires row as it was.

I also think downtown was quite dense back in the day... Maybe not filled with row houses or apartment buildings everywhere, but dense nonetheless - see below. And I have to believe there would have been an even bigger and better arts scene/First Friday if a lot of the historic structures still existed. Galleries and artists are drawn to those types of old houses and quaint commercial buildings.

[vwwolfe]

I couldn't figure out why ADOT would be doing construction in Hance Park, then I remember that there is a tunnel that goes under it.

ADOT Construction Update:
ADOT is performing work to mitigate water infiltration into the I-10 tunnel. This project began in June 2015 and is not part of the Hance Park Re-Master Plan.

Phase I:
- Areas west of Central Ave., including Japanese Friendship Garden
- ADOT construction scheduled for June through August
- Restoration and overseeding work scheduled for August through November
Phase II:
- Areas east of Central Ave., including Burton Barr Library (loading dock and employee parking)
- ADOT construction scheduled for August through October
- Restoration and overseeding work scheduled for November through December

[biggus diggus]

Hopefully that means the drip in the eastbound exit lane coming up to 7th street is going to finally be fixed. Nothing is more frustrating than spending 3 hours washing my car and then being pelted with water drips I have to spot detail off. If there's no traffic I can get around it, but it's a pretty evasive maneuver that isn't appropriate with other cars on the road.

[combusean]

I widened the scope of this thread to include other cities. The same rules apply for Tempe Projects Thread as that city has absolutely started to boom.

I was just curious--if Tempe City Hall were razed and that entire area rebuilt, would anything of value be lost, especially compared to what could be built in its stead?

I think most of that area around what would be Myrtle and 6th is a mistake and I've never heard anybody talk about it. City Hall is a massive deadzone with its hot, useless plaza above subterranean building roofs. Closing 6th Street should never have happened--I didn't like it when the Brickyard did that then and I don't like it now. Myrtle is also screwed up as a decent connector cause of the Brickyard and what happened with City Hall.

I say raze it and replace. Especially that crappy two story building on 6th and Forest--maybe that should be a brand new City Hall midrise and the present disaster would be a brand new city block ready for renewal.

The only thing that makes City Hall unique is its construction as an upside down pyramid, but I think we should relegate that 70s dystopic crap to the dustbin of history. Nobody missed the building on 2nd St and Roosevelt that burned down, the crap the new Hospice of the Valley replaced and nobody sane (shots fired) should miss City Hall, especially if a new neighborhood could be created there.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

I was just curious--if Tempe City Hall were razed and that entire area rebuilt, would anything of value be lost, especially compared to what could be built in its stead?

I think most of that area around what would be Myrtle and 6th is a mistake and I've never heard anybody talk about it. City Hall is a massive deadzone with its hot, useless plaza above subterranean building roofs. Closing 6th Street should never have happened--I didn't like it when the Brickyard did that then and I don't like it now. Myrtle is also screwed up as a decent connector cause of the Brickyard and what happened with City Hall.

I say raze it and replace. Especially that crappy two story building on 6th and Forest--maybe that should be a brand new City Hall midrise and the present disaster would be a brand new city block ready for renewal.

During a recent visit to the Tempe History Museum, I learned that when Tempe's current city hall was built, there was a debate about whether to construct it Downtown or on the city-owned land at Southern & Rural -- the very site where the history museum and public library stand today. The case for Southern & Rural was that it is almost exactly the geographic center of Tempe and would therefore represent a balance between the interests of the northern & southern parts of the city. I'm not fond of inverted pyramids in any location, though.

[DevilsRider]

Originally Posted by combusean

I widened the scope of this thread to include other cities. The same rules apply for Tempe Projects Thread as that city has absolutely started to boom.

I was just curious--if Tempe City Hall were razed and that entire area rebuilt, would anything of value be lost, especially compared to what could be built in its stead?

I think most of that area around what would be Myrtle and 6th is a mistake and I've never heard anybody talk about it. City Hall is a massive deadzone with its hot, useless plaza above subterranean building roofs. Closing 6th Street should never have happened--I didn't like it when the Brickyard did that then and I don't like it now. Myrtle is also screwed up as a decent connector cause of the Brickyard and what happened with City Hall.

I say raze it and replace. Especially that crappy two story building on 6th and Forest--maybe that should be a brand new City Hall midrise and the present disaster would be a brand new city block ready for renewal.

The only thing that makes City Hall unique is its construction as an upside down pyramid, but I think we should relegate that 70s dystopic crap to the dustbin of history. Nobody missed the building on 2nd St and Roosevelt that burned down, the crap the new Hospice of the Valley replaced and nobody sane (shots fired) should miss City Hall, especially if a new neighborhood could be created there.

I've never thought about the potential to redevelop Tempe's City Hall, but it would make a lot of sense The lot size is pretty close to University House just down the street, so it could certainly handle a new, smaller-profile municipal building and a significant private development. And you're right about the architecture and site layout. The few times that I have had to go there, I have hated having to go subterranean to get anywhere. And the plaza areas are awful dead space.

Regarding 6th and Myrtle, though... I don't feel like there's a strong need for a new street grid reconnection, as long as the sidewalks/paths are retained. Myrtle isn't coming back, as the Brickyard Garage dead-ends it on the south and the north end is basically dead-end parking access for Mission Palms. 6th Street doesn't have any connectivity benefits that 7th or 5th can't give you, especially since it dead-ends east of College and on the west side at Ash. The primary purpose is basically as a low-stress, wide alley, with garage entries for West 6th, Hanover, Brickyard, University Towers, University House, and ASU/Stadium, as well as strong non-vehicular connectivity around City Hall. I don't see that you really gain anything by reconnecting it, and it actually might make things worse because then you'd be adding through traffic to a street that already handles a lot of turning/parking movement.

All that said, your best bet in redeveloping would probably be to put the new municipal building on the northeast corner (adjacent to the garage and right across the street from the court, transportation center, and police department. Hopefully you could do so while only removing part of the undergrounded structure, leaving the pyramid in place to minimize disruptions to on-going governance. Then when the new building was completed you could tear down the old one and put the site out to bid. A private developer could either work with City Hall and Brickyard to provide parking, or build an underground structure that enters/exits onto 6th street at the Myrtle alignment (to avoid a garage gauntlet for people walking on 6th St by Mill). The private development could be one larger L-shaped building like University House, or two separate buildings like West 6th. I think it could work!

Originally Posted by exit2lef

During a recent visit to the Tempe History Museum, I learned that when Tempe's current city hall was built, there was a debate about whether to construct it Downtown or on the city-owned land at Southern & Rural -- the very site where the history museum and public library stand today. The case for Southern & Rural was that it is almost exactly the geographic center of Tempe and would therefore represent a balance between the interests of the northern & southern parts of the city. I'm not fond of inverted pyramids in any location, though.

That's pretty fascinating. I've always wondered why so many municipal services were at the northern end of the city and not near the center!

[Jjs5056]

I had the exact same thoughts re: Tempe as Sean posted. The area between Mill and College really needs have some vision put behind it, with recommendations on how to encourage redevelopment of structures that don't fit current urban design standards.

I absolutely think 6th Street should be reconnected. The Brickyard has consistently struggled with vacancies, and the lack of E-W connections has to be hurting the Forest/Myrtle blocks.

The City's properties downtown are some of the largest dead-zones. They completely kill the momentum between Mill and the TTC area of 5th Street. I think it would be great if they built an all-inclusive municipal building where the jail, etc. currently sits, and RFP'd the existing pyramid and park.

They've also continued to mention the underutilization of the Arts Center on 6th St/Myrtle. That entire intersection is a disaster that could easily be fixed. There are huge setbacks along the ASU Towers and garage that could be wrapped, and the Birchett House on Block 12 could be turned into something more active. With the Islamic Cultural Center nearby, it would be interesting to turn it into a hub of different cultures maybe?

One look at Tempe's historic registry, and you'll see how destructive the city was around 1990. Entire historic 'hoods were cleared for Centerpoint, and what the city has ended up with is a collection of awkward plazas that do nothing to expand energy beyond Mill. There are actually very few authentic historic buildings downtown, and I think many of the early 'renewal' projects are worth tearing down. At least portions of Centerpoint could be intensified, the Marriott Courtyard is completely out of place, and Hayden Square - the condos at least - need to be redeveloped into something with actual street presence, etc.

The awkward shape of the lots along Ash is going to make development impossible, too, so there's likely going to always be a gap between Mill and Farmer. To try and make the most use of Ash, I wish they'd move the Birchett House and the one in the shadow of W6 on Ash over to the parking lot adjacent to Old Towne Square, and turned that whole area into a Heritage Square type of place. The sporadic nature of the remaining historic homes and their use as office space adds nothing to downtown.

[nickw252]

Question unrelated to development -

Does anyone here have Century Link Prism TV? Cox just jacked up my bill because my "promotional rate" expired (I hate these games). I keep seeing advertisements for Prism TV, and the idea of a wireless box really interests me. It's also a lot less expensive than Cox (under their promotional rate).

However, my understanding is that the TV signal comes over the internet. I'm just concerned that there may not be enough bandwidth for 2 HD receivers and the internet to be running at the same time.

Does anyone have experience with Prism TV?

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by nickw252

Question unrelated to development -

Does anyone here have Century Link Prism TV? Cox just jacked up my bill because my "promotional rate" expired (I hate these games). I keep seeing advertisements for Prism TV, and the idea of a wireless box really interests me. It's also a lot less expensive than Cox (under their promotional rate).

However, my understanding is that the TV signal comes over the internet. I'm just concerned that there may not be enough bandwidth for 2 HD receivers and the internet to be running at the same time.

Does anyone have experience with Prism TV?

It's not over the internet, it uses the phone line, much like Cox's cable TV and internet offerings share the same line but don't compete. Whenever I've checked it hasn't been available where I live. I would imagine that would be the case in Encanto-Palmcroft as well. Century Link needs to do an upgrade of some sort before they can offer it.

[SunDevil]

After a long 2 years of construction, a new restaurant called Ocotillo opened on 3rd St. a little south of Osborn (across from China Chilli). Will be getting the Falafel burger for lunch on Monday. Also, on 3rd st. between Osborn and Thomas, a 3 story office building that was stripped down to it's frame now has it's exterior refinished. It's better than the old building but still as bland as possible.

[biggus diggus]

I've been there almost every day this week, they have sightglass coffee and I spent about 20 minutes chatting with the girl in charge of the coffee shop (forgot her name) and she seemed to know a lot (I'm a coffee nerd, own lots of manual brewing systems and nice grinders; harsh critic).

I've had the coconut curry soup, tofu Bahn mi, falafel burger, and sausage sandwich. I love it all except the falafel burger which wasn't bad but lacked the creativity and flavor of the others so comparatively boring.

The office building is housing for autistic adults capable of working.

[biggus diggus]

There was a guy at Ocotillo this morning getting coffee, he was carrying around a model of Edison and boasting what a nerd he is and that he follows developments in the city.

I'm sure it was one of you from this site but I wasn't going to say something and make the awkwardness more awkward.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

There was a guy at Ocotillo this morning getting coffee, he was carrying around a model of Edison and boasting what a nerd he is and that he follows developments in the city.

I'm sure it was one of you from this site but I wasn't going to say something and make the awkwardness more awkward.

^----

[Red Robot]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

There was a guy at Ocotillo this morning getting coffee, he was carrying around a model of Edison and boasting what a nerd he is and that he follows developments in the city.

I'm sure it was one of you from this site but I wasn't going to say something and make the awkwardness more awkward.

Haha it was me! I've been lurking for about a year now. That was a 3D printed model of the Edison project, it was sitting next to the cash register by some sales brochures.

I've lived in Uptown Phoenix since 2006 in the Pierson Place Historic District. I moved into Landmark Towers (as a renter, fortunately!) 9 years ago just as light rail construction was beginning and I've been witness to this whole region's transformation. I bought a house close to the high-rise in 2013, I couldn't imagine living anywhere else in the city.

I'm a big proponent of multi-use urban density, public transit and walkability. This is one of the rare parts of town that is already very walkable, and I'm excited to see all the new development ramping up in this area, as well as along the entire light rail line. I spent a lot of time participating in the Reinvent Phoenix program and it's encouraging to see the vision moving forward.

I love reading about Phoenix history and digging up all that I can. I'm fascinated by the city that Phoenix used to be, and I feel so much heartbreak for what has been lost, even as an Ohio transplant, but I've always been optimistic about the future of the core of the city. This is home to me, not Ohio.

It has been fascinating to read through this topic over the past year and learn more about all the projects that "almost happened" during the previous development boom cycle. I remember the energy of that time, and I remember feeling frustrated with the endless suburban sprawl and car-centric development all over the region. Everything seemed so grandiose and excessive. I watched home values skyrocket, frenzied renovations and flips, it felt like everyone was playing the game. Being a renter in Landmark Towers, I watched the prices of units rise on speculation, most of the condos sold were 'investor owned' rentals, I honestly expected to be priced out of the whole building in short time.

And then the bubble burst. I watched the whole building slowly foreclose unit by unit. I saw all the projects around town get cancelled and fail. I watched it all grind to a halt, leaving the city core more damaged with more empty lots than ever before. Lots of heartbreak.

Now that development is starting up again it's nice to see things take a slightly more humble approach compared to the last cycle. Even more encouraging is that much of this new wave of development is focused on density in the core of the city, with Prop 104 passed and the city's general plan behind it all. Not all new development has been ideal (I'm looking at you, single use anti-urban apartment complexes), but many of these newer projects are starting to check off the right boxes for multi-use structures with pedestrian friendly street level uses. Hopefully the city stays on the right trajectory and we can fill in a lot of these holes in the central core before this boom cycle inevitably bursts too.

Anyways, hello everyone! Thanks for all your contributions.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Red Robot

Haha it was me! I've been lurking for about a year now. That was a 3D printed model of the Edison project, it was sitting next to the cash register by some sales brochures.

I've lived in Uptown Phoenix since 2006 in the Pierson Place Historic District. I moved into Landmark Towers (as a renter, fortunately!) 9 years ago just as light rail construction was beginning and I've been witness to this whole region's transformation. I bought a house close to the high-rise in 2013, I couldn't imagine living anywhere else in the city.

I'm a big proponent of multi-use urban density, public transit and walkability. This is one of the rare parts of town that is already very walkable, and I'm excited to see all the new development ramping up in this area, as well as along the entire light rail line. I spent a lot of time participating in the Reinvent Phoenix program and it's encouraging to see the vision moving forward.

I love reading about Phoenix history and digging up all that I can. I'm fascinated by the city that Phoenix used to be, and I feel so much heartbreak for what has been lost, even as an Ohio transplant, but I've always been optimistic about the future of the core of the city. This is home to me, not Ohio.

It has been fascinating to read through this topic over the past year and learn more about all the projects that "almost happened" during the previous development boom cycle. I remember the energy of that time, and I remember feeling frustrated with the endless suburban sprawl and car-centric development all over the region. Everything seemed so grandiose and excessive. I watched home values skyrocket, frenzied renovations and flips, it felt like everyone was playing the game. Being a renter in Landmark Towers, I watched the prices of units rise on speculation, most of the condos sold were 'investor owned' rentals, I honestly expected to be priced out of the whole building in short time.

And then the bubble burst. I watched the whole building slowly foreclose unit by unit. I saw all the projects around town get cancelled and fail. I watched it all grind to a halt, leaving the city core more damaged with more empty lots than ever before. Lots of heartbreak.

Now that development is starting up again it's nice to see things take a slightly more humble approach compared to the last cycle. Even more encouraging is that much of this new wave of development is focused on density in the core of the city, with Prop 104 passed and the city's general plan behind it all. Not all new development has been ideal (I'm looking at you, single use anti-urban apartment complexes), but many of these newer projects are starting to check off the right boxes for multi-use structures with pedestrian friendly street level uses. Hopefully the city stays on the right trajectory and we can fill in a lot of these holes in the central core before this boom cycle inevitably bursts too.

Anyways, hello everyone! Thanks for all your contributions.

Nice intro. Thanks for de-lurking. I haven't tried the coffee house at Ocotillo, but I had lunch in the restaurant there today -- my second time doing so. Great food and atmosphere. I'm hearing rumors Third Street may soon be transformed with bike lanes, which will make it even easier for me to get there from my office. That street has so much unrealized potential right now.