Winnipeg Construction VIII

[1ajs]

[abo]

Havent been on these boards for a while, glad to see it alive and well! So, word on the street rn is that the Hargrave and Ellice liquor mart will be bought out by True North to continue their projects in that area. They want a clean image of downtown so the people walking out with cheap bottles of sherry, hanging out in groups around there and causing disturbances are not part of TN's best interest. It wouldn't surprise me considering the store is across the street from the Glasshouse/Parkade development they are working on atm. Nothing official or that I heard first hand.. just rumours. Anyone hear anything about this?

[cllew]

Then the customers from that store will move to the City Place store and be outside of the True North project on the City Place lot.

[Riverman]

Easy to fix that problem - stop selling the product the bums buy. No bingo, no Stone Cold, no lucky, no tall boys, No Five Star. Make it a high end store only.

[esquire]

^ What's wrong with Lucky and Five Star?

While it does seem a bit redundant to have two Liquor Marts two blocks apart, TNSE should be careful what it wishes for... it wouldn't surprise me at all if cllew's prediction came true. Maybe the right approach is to move the Ellice store to a space in the Exchange? Then the current clientele still has a place to go, and it has the added bonus of being a convenience for the Exchange District/Portage and Main population? Something like that would be perfect for one of the storefronts on Albert.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ What's wrong with Lucky and Five Star?

While it does seem a bit redundant to have two Liquor Marts two blocks apart, TNSE should be careful what it wishes for... it wouldn't surprise me at all if cllew's prediction came true. Maybe the right approach is to move the Ellice store to a space in the Exchange? Then the current clientele still has a place to go, and it has the added bonus of being a convenience for the Exchange District/Portage and Main population? Something like that would be perfect for one of the storefronts on Albert.

An LC in the Exchange would completely kill the progress of the area. People forget that the West Exchange is about two blocks from what's probably the second or third worst area in the city. And it would widen the boundaries of what was once - and still partially remains - Main street's skid row. You would immediately create the exact sort of hub you don't want.

TNSE can try and do what it likes, but the LC is not the only thing in the area that's attractive to those they don't want. For one, the Marlborough and Quest are each a stone's throw away and those places are just as seedy as the LC on Ellice.

[esquire]

^ I doubt it would kill the progress of that area... the Liquor Mart on Ellice is not that disruptive (especially during the day), and if you go to the Exchange at night you'll see that some of the street person element is there anyway. I think the added convenience of having a Liquor Mart in the Exchange would probably outweigh any negatives.

As cllew alluded, if MLCC closes the Ellice Liquor Mart without replacing it, the crowd from there will just drift down to the SHED near the Cityplace location...

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by abo

Havent been on these boards for a while, glad to see it alive and well! So, word on the street rn is that the Hargrave and Ellice liquor mart will be bought out by True North to continue their projects in that area.

It wouldn't surprise me if MLLC headquarters moved into True North Square with a flagship store on the plaza replacing both the CityPlace and Hargrave and Ellice stores. With some decent security and staffing around the area, ie funding Downtown Watch to patrol the area, it could discourage the "undesirables" from frequently the location. Also, if part of the plan is to cut off that market they could close the Ellice store a few years before the True North Square opens and cut the hours of the CityPlace location to "office hours". If the supply isn't readily available the customers will start to go elsewhere.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

It wouldn't surprise me if MLLC headquarters moved into True North Square with a flagship store on the plaza replacing both the CityPlace and Hargrave and Ellice stores. With some decent security and staffing around the area, ie funding Downtown Watch to patrol the area, it could discourage the "undesirables" from frequently the location. Also, if part of the plan is to cut off that market they could close the Ellice store a few years before the True North Square opens and cut the hours of the CityPlace location to "office hours". If the supply isn't readily available the customers will start to go elsewhere.

Best idea.

Now that you mention it, it would be nice to have a bit of a showcase store downtown right at MLLC HQ. As things stand, downtown has two very basic Liquor Marts... why not make it one higher-profile store that looks a bit more like what you see at the one by Polo Park, or the one in Grant Park.

[rypinion]

The Central Park area is more than just a few homeless people. It's one of the highest density areas of the city and home to a high number of immigrants.

A walk past Central Park itself on a summer weekend or evening (or lunch hour) would vividly demonstrate this.

There's a large market of people there for an LC (and other services) beyond the "bum" contingent.

Some photos from Trueviking to illustrate (and this actually looks less busy than normal):

https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy/status/622952174536921089

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I doubt it would kill the progress of that area... the Liquor Mart on Ellice is not that disruptive (especially during the day), and if you go to the Exchange at night you'll see that some of the street person element is there anyway. I think the added convenience of having a Liquor Mart in the Exchange would probably outweigh any negatives.

As cllew alluded, if MLCC closes the Ellice Liquor Mart without replacing it, the crowd from there will just drift down to the SHED near the Cityplace location...

I agree with Simplicity here. An LC would eventually create a "deadzone" where ever it sets up in the Exchange.

[esquire]

^ But is the zone around the Ellice location really all that "dead"? I'd argue it isn't, at least not by downtown Winnipeg standards... it's across from Centrepoint, next door to a bunch of office buildings including some that have been thoroughly redeveloped in recent years (AANDC on Hargrave, Canada Bldg. on Donald), a couple of restaurants, a couple of shops, etc.). I'm not sure how much livelier that area would be if the Liquor Mart wasn't there...

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ But is the zone around the Ellice location really all that "dead"? I'd argue it isn't, at least not by downtown Winnipeg standards... it's across from Centrepoint, next door to a bunch of office buildings including some that have been thoroughly redeveloped in recent years (AANDC on Hargrave, Canada Bldg. on Donald), a couple of restaurants, a couple of shops, etc.). I'm not sure how much livelier that area would be if the Liquor Mart wasn't there...

Different area, different demographics.

I sense that the Exchange is a bit "fragile" in terms of the success of commercial businesses and residential projects.

Having more people stumbling around could really disrupt things.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by rypinion

The Central Park area is more than just a few homeless people. It's one of the highest density areas of the city and home to a high number of immigrants.

A walk past Central Park itself on a summer weekend or evening (or lunch hour) would vividly demonstrate this.

There's a large market of people there for an LC (and other services) beyond the "bum" contingent.

Some photos from Trueviking to illustrate (and this actually looks less busy than normal):

https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy/status/622952174536921089

nothing wrong with Central Park, but the area in front of Mother Tuckers / Walby's Hog house / Masonic Temple is brutal. A day doesn't go by where someone isn't passed out in front of it.

[CoryB]

The idea that an LC downtown or in the Exchange would be the same as setting off a nuclear bomb leaving the surrounding area a contaminated "no-go" zone needs to change. How come no one beaks about all the "trouble" the wine store at The Forks causes? The specific location, the product selection, the staff and the hours of operation all play into what these stores offer to their community. If a store in the Exchange kept an eye out for SKUs attracting the wrong client and proactively removed them that could help reduce the issues.

Something else Winnipeg really needs to be mindful of is how alcohol sales, both on-site and off-site, are managed in the event the Jets go on an extended play-off run. I still maintain the mishandling of alcohol sales was a significant contributor to the Vancouver riot.

I think a key is a lengthy time gap between the Ellice LC closing and the new flagship SHED located store opening. The time gap would encourage the customer base to find new locations to purchase from. The other question is what replaces the Ellice LC?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The idea that an LC downtown or in the Exchange would be the same as setting off a nuclear bomb leaving the surrounding area a contaminated "no-go" zone needs to change. How come no one beaks about all the "trouble" the wine store at The Forks causes?

Yeah, I'm just not convinced that a Liquor Mart is the driving force behind problems downtown. I mean, the Woodbine has a beer vendor right in the middle of the hipster heart of the Exchange District and things seem to be OK.

I would think that a nice Liquor Mart in the Exchange could be perceived as a good amenity for the area... one more element of a complete neighbourhood.

[esquire]

In other news, Edison Properties is cooking up other unspecified projects now that Ruth Gardens is over. Anyone with keys to the paywall doors can read about it here:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/edison-properties-bright-idea-325576001.html

I've only ever seen Ruth Gardens from the air, but it certainly looks like a hulking beast in the context of its surroundings. It strikes me as an ideal infill project.

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, I'm just not convinced that a Liquor Mart is the driving force behind problems downtown. I mean, the Woodbine has a beer vendor right in the middle of the hipster heart of the Exchange District and things seem to be OK.

I would think that a nice Liquor Mart in the Exchange could be perceived as a good amenity for the area... one more element of a complete neighbourhood.

I agree the notion that "LC equals undesirables" is unfortunate - but I can't see how it is not the logical outcome if one opens, especially in the Exchange.

I know people who avoid the LC at Portage and Banning, let alone the one on Ellice. It's just the reality of the situation.

An "upscale" wine store would probably work fine.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

I know people who avoid the LC at Portage and Banning, let alone the one on Ellice. It's just the reality of the situation.

I'm a regular at the Ellice location, although yeah, I get that being a big, still somewhat young-ish male means that I don't face the issues that others, particularly women, do. However, I will say that this location is exceptionally well staffed by Liquor Mart personnel as well as security guards... you can't turn around in the parking lot or inside without several friendly employees offering you a hand. No one should feel concerned about going in there!

[drew]

^ Portage and Banning is the same. I actually find the service "too good".

I also know people who avoid these LC's precisely BECAUSE there are security guards.

The "it must be unsafe because they have a security guard there all the time" crowd.