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  #8761  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 1:58 AM
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is offline
 
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[Not really sure what "UBC Line" is, and why it is included in this so called fall out. While the TBM delay/disaster will indeed upset much more than the transit service (i.e. future tunneling contractors will think twice and be even more conservative at their ETAs), its not going to be that much of a big deal. The damage has already been done since the Evergreen Line has been delayed for decades.[/QUOTE]

The next RR project is the UBC/Broadway line.

I am somewhat apprehensive that the delays in the Evergreen line (due to the TBM) will run the announcement of the next project into the election.

Like most RR enthusiasts I want as much RR as possible into as many corners of the Lower Mainland as possible. The "rats nest" that I see developing cannot do anything but harm to that wish.
     
     
  #8762  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 3:08 AM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by queetz@home View Post
Oh I'm sure if "ownership" of the Burquitlam segment "belongs" to the subcontractor, the Province and/or Translink can negotiate to pay the subcontracors for use of it "early" in order to gain photo-op points. All happening behind close doors from the public. Don't be naive that this can never happen....
Exactly. In politics "where there's a will there's a way". The question here isn't "can it be done", it's: "does the government want it to be done, and if so, how badly?"
     
     
  #8763  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 3:51 PM
Olden Retreiver Olden Retreiver is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queetz@home View Post
Oh I'm sure if "ownership" of the Burquitlam segment "belongs" to the subcontractor, the Province and/or Translink can negotiate to pay the subcontracors for use of it "early" in order to gain photo-op points. All happening behind close doors from the public. Don't be naive that this can never happen....

.
I did not foresee that a consortium of SNC's stellar reputation (rolls eyes) would stiff their subcontractors like this. Therefore, I have to now retract my prediction that Burquitlam will open "early" (or "on time" as ponied out by another poster, LOL.)

Whatever fallout (or fall-in) eventually comes from the tunnel disaster, it would be much worsened or maybe even dwarfed by the legal fiasco of any provincial attempt to take ownership of a portion of the project. For example, who would get or approve the subcontractors' claims to be paid out? And how would those amounts be deducted from the eventual sum to be paid to EGRT at completion? The lawyers's fees alone would put to rest any claims that the tunnelling delays have no impact other than financial losses for the consortium.
     
     
  #8764  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 10:16 PM
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hollywoodnorth hollywoodnorth is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver View Post
I did not foresee that a consortium of SNC's stellar reputation (rolls eyes) would stiff their subcontractors like this. Therefore, I have to now retract my prediction that Burquitlam will open "early" (or "on time" as ponied out by another poster, LOL.)

Whatever fallout (or fall-in) eventually comes from the tunnel disaster, it would be much worsened or maybe even dwarfed by the legal fiasco of any provincial attempt to take ownership of a portion of the project. For example, who would get or approve the subcontractors' claims to be paid out? And how would those amounts be deducted from the eventual sum to be paid to EGRT at completion? The lawyers's fees alone would put to rest any claims that the tunnelling delays have no impact other than financial losses for the consortium.
how are they stiffing anyone? if it was in the contract the SUBs signed (which it was) .... then guess what they had the option of not taking the job .... but they took it anyway. therefor they must adhere to the terms of the contract.
     
     
  #8765  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 10:45 PM
TransitJack TransitJack is offline
 
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Evergreen is negotiated as a turn-key project, not segmented. The whole project is completed and handed over at once, not staged releases to the operator (BCRTC/Translink)

To change that this parties would need to re-negotiate and I doubt Translink has any funds for that. The Province is the principle contact and they aren't going to readily make changes to the current P3 agreement.

I doubt Translink wants to suddenly have to plan and prepare for a segmented/staged introduction.
     
     
  #8766  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2015, 1:24 AM
Olden Retreiver Olden Retreiver is offline
 
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Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth View Post
how are they stiffing anyone? if it was in the contract the SUBs signed (which it was) .... then guess what they had the option of not taking the job .... but they took it anyway. therefor they must adhere to the terms of the contract.
You seem to be suggesting a "Pay when Paid" schedule that would never stand up in Canadian courts. If substantial payments have been made to the general contractors, and they have been:

http://www.partnershipsbc.ca/files-4/documents/PBCEvergreen.pdf

and if the work of any given Subcontractor is complete, then payment to the Sub is now due.

Subcontractors and trades will grumble anonymously about late payment long before they speak up publicly, and will take legal action only as a last resort.

That EGRT is paying at least some of its bills is evident in SNC's $20 or $40 Million quarterly loss - if everything was "Pay when Paid" they'd be whistling blithely for a while yet.
     
     
  #8767  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2015, 3:23 AM
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casper casper is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post

... the contractor (SNC) does not have billions to front all sorts of subcontractor payments until they get paid (some uncertain date in the future) ..
Actually it does. It has just spend billions over the past few years buying up other companies.

What is likely does not want to do is spend billions floating this specific project.
     
     
  #8768  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2015, 4:15 AM
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Jebby Jebby is offline
 
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Actually it does. It has just spend billions over the past few years buying up other companies.
I don't think you understand how M&A's usually go down. It's not likely SNC has billions lying around in spare cash to acquire other companies. These deals involve a lot of debt financing and/or equity stakes.
     
     
  #8769  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2015, 7:13 AM
red-paladin red-paladin is offline
 
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Sorry about my absence, my computer died and I've just finally got a new one set up.
     
     
  #8770  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2015, 6:25 PM
TransitJack TransitJack is offline
 
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SNC is only one of many contractors in the project and the liability would be shared between the Joint Venture anyways (JV).

http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/contractor.htm

EGRT Construction includes SNC-Lavalin Inc., Graham Building Services, International Bridge Technologies Inc., Jacobs Associates Canada Corporation, Rizzani de Eccher Inc., S.E.L.I. Canada Inc., SNC-Lavalin Constructors (Pacific) Inc., SNC-Lavalin Constructors (Western) Inc., and MMM Group Ltd.

S.E.L.I is the main tunnelling contractor that is part of the JV

http://www.selitunnel.com
     
     
  #8771  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2015, 8:24 PM
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SFUVancouver SFUVancouver is offline
 
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Originally Posted by red-paladin View Post
Sorry about my absence, my computer died and I've just finally got a new one set up.
Good to have you back.
     
     
  #8772  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2015, 7:01 AM
red-paladin red-paladin is offline
 
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Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
Good to have you back.
Thanks!
     
     
  #8773  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2015, 8:53 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransitJack View Post
Evergreen is negotiated as a turn-key project, not segmented. The whole project is completed and handed over at once, not staged releases to the operator (BCRTC/Translink)

To change that this parties would need to re-negotiate and I doubt Translink has any funds for that. The Province is the principle contact and they aren't going to readily make changes to the current P3 agreement.

I doubt Translink wants to suddenly have to plan and prepare for a segmented/staged introduction.
You don't need to re-negotiate. One party has money (the $1.4 billion they are going to pay) and the other party has a partially working Skytrain line (that they are going to deliver in full one day for said money). You just open a new negotiation. One party would want part of a Skytrain line delivered early, the other party wants some money early.

I'm not saying this is going to happen, or that it is even likely. I just don't think there are any technical, financial, or legal reasons for not doing it. Just politics and optics are they only thing holding it back.
     
     
  #8774  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2015, 4:34 PM
TransitJack TransitJack is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
You don't need to re-negotiate. One party has money (the $1.4 billion they are going to pay) and the other party has a partially working Skytrain line (that they are going to deliver in full one day for said money). You just open a new negotiation. One party would want part of a Skytrain line delivered early, the other party wants some money early.

I'm not saying this is going to happen, or that it is even likely. I just don't think there are any technical, financial, or legal reasons for not doing it. Just politics and optics are they only thing holding it back.
What party wants it partially opened? Translink has never stated they want to operate to Burquitlam in a staged opening. From a planning and operations prospective with bus route coordination, why would they want to make more work for themselves?

The project is ongoing. The tunnel has delays but is still planned for completion, albeit delayed. You don't re-negotiate, or "open a new negotiation" over this type of delay. Translink isn't involved in the construction of EG other than subsidiary projects like Lougheed integration and Broadway/Commercial improvements. The provincial government put the project to tender and they are the ones who turn the keys over to Translink when complete. I don't believe they have indicated any desire to have a staged opening either. The BC Libs will want the P3 model to reflect private sector absorbing cost over runs and I wouldn't be surprised if they at some point announce how great P3s are for this very reason.

This type of payment plan is quite common in the industry. The companies involved have to or have already budgeted for this, their employees have been paid. If nothing else, this delay provides a good example of how the P3 model keeps the risks of overruns on the private sector, not the public.

I think all this fuss is blown out of proportion by a Global news reporter whom in his own story used a lot of words like "might" and "maybe". He talks about "rusty rails" in the report, but new rail is rusty until they profile grind it (which clearly they don't need to do yet -- they are still installing it). http://globalnews.ca/news/2189822/evergreen-line-delays-causes-financial-pain-for-contractor/
     
     
  #8775  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2015, 6:58 PM
finalcoolman finalcoolman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransitJack View Post
I think all this fuss is blown out of proportion by a Global news reporter whom in his own story used a lot of words like "might" and "maybe". He talks about "rusty rails" in the report, but new rail is rusty until they profile grind it (which clearly they don't need to do yet -- they are still installing it). http://globalnews.ca/news/2189822/evergreen-line-delays-causes-financial-pain-for-contractor/
Lol, the rusty rails thing was pretty ridiculous. My brake rotors 'rust' after just a day or two of not using my car.

But his audience is the ignorant masses of British Columbia, and he knows it.
     
     
  #8776  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2015, 10:01 PM
Kisai Kisai is offline
 
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Originally Posted by finalcoolman View Post
Lol, the rusty rails thing was pretty ridiculous. My brake rotors 'rust' after just a day or two of not using my car.

But his audience is the ignorant masses of British Columbia, and he knows it.
The same Global News (different reporters) reported that the Skytrain was too loud while they had the WINDOWS OPEN... IN THE TUNNEL.

The same Global News that would air entire interviews with Jordan Bateman and not even bother to fact check with Translink.

Like... I like Global News... but someone needs to call out their BS, because if I'm seeing factually wrong information being presented as fact, I'm going to start questioning the validity of other stories.
     
     
  #8777  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2015, 11:05 PM
AMTDGT AMTDGT is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kisai View Post
The same Global News (different reporters) reported that the Skytrain was too loud while they had the WINDOWS OPEN... IN THE TUNNEL.

The same Global News that would air entire interviews with Jordan Bateman and not even bother to fact check with Translink.

Like... I like Global News... but someone needs to call out their BS, because if I'm seeing factually wrong information being presented as fact, I'm going to start questioning the validity of other stories.
Admittedly I have Zero respect for the New Media, whatever form in BC, both in their story research or the stories they choose to follow. Having admitted my bios, today we used our Compass Cards for the first time. Our discussion was around the fact we believe translink, after much advertising and promotion, will slowly begin to close the gates in the fall eventually shutting the gates for good. You can pretty much guarantee the story on Global, CBC, CKNW, the Province, etc will not be the weeks of warnings from translink, but will be focus on finding a few of the idiots who don't have passes and having those winers discredit the project...just saying
     
     
  #8778  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2015, 11:57 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransitJack View Post
What party wants it partially opened? Translink has never stated they want to operate to Burquitlam in a staged opening. From a planning and operations prospective with bus route coordination, why would they want to make more work for themselves?

The project is ongoing. The tunnel has delays but is still planned for completion, albeit delayed. You don't re-negotiate, or "open a new negotiation" over this type of delay. Translink isn't involved in the construction of EG other than subsidiary projects like Lougheed integration and Broadway/Commercial improvements. The provincial government put the project to tender and they are the ones who turn the keys over to Translink when complete. I don't believe they have indicated any desire to have a staged opening either. The BC Libs will want the P3 model to reflect private sector absorbing cost over runs and I wouldn't be surprised if they at some point announce how great P3s are for this very reason.

This type of payment plan is quite common in the industry. The companies involved have to or have already budgeted for this, their employees have been paid. If nothing else, this delay provides a good example of how the P3 model keeps the risks of overruns on the private sector, not the public.

I think all this fuss is blown out of proportion by a Global news reporter whom in his own story used a lot of words like "might" and "maybe". He talks about "rusty rails" in the report, but new rail is rusty until they profile grind it (which clearly they don't need to do yet -- they are still installing it). http://globalnews.ca/news/2189822/evergreen-line-delays-causes-financial-pain-for-contractor/
Nothing is set in stone. Just because Translink isn't floating the idea around with focus groups and community panels doesn't mean it isn't something they wouldn't want to do in the future if the reality on the ground changes.

If this tunnel is delayed any further, it is a plausible option to open part early.

As it was, a Summer 2016 launch was a great time for change. It's summer, traffic is low, people are upbeat; the time is ripe for change. And there will be a lot of change when Evergreen opens. So it is best to institute that change (de-integrating of Millennium/Expo line, new/changed bus routes) when it affects the fewest number of people, so when a lot of riders come back to the system after summer break, all the kinks and bugs are worked out and it can handle the rush.

As it is, a Fall 2016 launch is not much of a delay. It does make it harder to institute change, as people tend to not like change in rainy depressing October after they have settled into their winter routine. But the delay is so short between summer and fall that it might not be better off forcing change than easing it in somehow. However, opening Burquitlam in the summer would allow them to introduce the biggest change/shock at a more appropriate time, de-integration of E/M lines. It would also be great to have increased frequency on the Millennium line starting in September for the school rush.

As it might be, a 2017 opening is pushing the line way back. If that becomes the reality Translink's public opinion might change. Besides the fact of trying to curb public disappointment on the delay, there are costs associated with Translink's work they need to do to get ready for Evergreen. Letting buses sit idle amortizing and deferring staff hiring is costly in it's own way. It takes time and money for an organization to plan for a transition. Opening part of the line can actually let Translink put some of its plans in place (which I'm sure are well in the works).

Just the change in operation of the Millennium line, allowing greater, independent frequency on the both lines, can make a lot of people happy and increase ridership, generating revenue. While doing nothing and just waiting can cost Translink in other ways (planning dollars thrown out he window, bad PR, stale ridership).


Is it something they are actively looking at now? No, because I think we all still hope Fall 2016 is a reality. If it is not, then the tune might change. If it is Spring 2017? Who knows. Translink might want to put in motion some of their plans, and I'm sure SNC wouldn't mind a bit of a cash infusion for work they've actually finished.
     
     
  #8779  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2015, 4:20 AM
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Spork Spork is offline
 
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Does anybody know when the new trains will start arriving? I'm guessing 3-4 months of testing before we see them in full service, just like with the Mk2.5s.
     
     
  #8780  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2015, 4:33 AM
Jimbo604 Jimbo604 is offline
 
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"The tunnel boring machine (TBM) is currently under Clarke Road at Seaview Drive and will be resuming boring in early September."
Source: Aug 31st Tunneling Update

Maybe next Tuesday?? Back to school, back to work, back to tunneling!

Last edited by Jimbo604; Sep 2, 2015 at 2:23 PM.
     
     
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