Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

What happens with the education system is generally key to future outcomes.

You could in theory have a large-scale private Chinese education system in Vancouver with a big focus on Chinese languages. However, even private schools are subject to some oversight from the provincial ministry of education. You couldn't teach all Chinese with little to no English unless the provincial ministry decided to not exercise its authority to compel you to follow provincial guidelines and standards (which includes all kids achieving a decent fluency in English one would assume). Quebec has had run-ins with some orthodox Jewish private schools in the past not so much over language (though that is part of it) but also over simply not following the basic 3 Rs and instead having kids learn about "the holy book" for most of the day.

In the case of hispanics in the US, I don't think there is any movement to have their kids in private Spanish-first schools. If anything most hispanic parents are keen on their kids learning English (even if the parents don't speak it themselves) and integrating with mainstream American society.

In Vancouver, the Chinese presence seems more due to people doing it "because they can" or because that's what they are used to, as opposed to part of some grand plan to take over the city or certain parts of it.

[Stingray2004]

Again, I still don't understand what the hubbub is all about.

Pre-1989, Richmond was basically a caucasian suburb until the HK and Taiwanese influx began. Today, Richmond is about 50% ethnic Chinese and the majority reside near the core.

Obviously a well to do demographic based upon the higher-end vehicles everywhere. Not to mention the price of real estate.

And basically north of Westminster Hwy, along No 3 Rd., a plethora of Chinese restaurants and associated businesses (even an Asian shopping complex) exist that use Chinese-only signage.

Basically the new "Chinatown" for Metro Vancouver. The old "Chinatown" near the edge of downtown Van City also only has Chinese-only signage.

Big deal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It could be a problem down the road.

Let's say there's 100,000 unilingual Mandarin speakers in Richmond now. It's not enough to threaten the anglophone majority in BC right now, and nobody is forcing the English speaking majority to learn Mandarin, so really who gives a shit. It's more of a nuisance than anything else right now.

Let's say that in 25 years time that Chinese immigration has continued relatively unimpeded, and with the Mandarin base in Richmond, there are now over a million unilingual Mandarin speakers in the province. The Mandarin community now feels large enough to flex some political muscle and begins to demand government services in their own language. Under political pressure, the government acquiesces and most new government employees in the lower mainland now are required to be bilingual English/Mandarin. Suddenly the English speaking majority discovers that many coveted government jobs are no longer available for their children and the "Mandarin issue" becomes a huge political problem.

A non-issue over time can become a huge politcal headache if left neglected and unattended. My scenario above is speculative fiction and will likely never happen, but I think it is a cautionary tale and behooves the government to think of the risks of allowing unassimililatable and cloistered minority language communities to continue to grow.

I kind of address this in my previous post on education. Every generation of Chinese in Vancouver gets a substantial portion "skimmed off" due to assimilation through education and socialization. So you're not really building on the people already there as they are gone within a generation or two (at least in terms of being people who will be "Chinese" in their everyday linguistic and cultural behaviour).

To use a very Canadian example, Johnny Tremblay in Port Alberni BC who speaks no French but whose grandfather came from Quebec doesn't lobby for francophone rights in BC. Pierre Ross the unilingual francophone in La Malbaie QC won't likely lobby for anglo rights in Quebec.

So political pressure for more services in Chinese languages is unlikely to materialize unless the immigration levels surge even higher. And even then...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I kind of address this in my previous post on education. Every generation of Chinese in Vancouver gets a substantial portion "skimmed off" due to assimilation through education and socialization. So you're not really building on the people already there as they are gone within a generation or two (at least in terms of being people who will be "Chinese" in their everyday linguistic and cultural behaviour).

To use a very Canadian example, Johnny Tremblay in Port Alberni BC who speaks no French but whose grandfather came from Quebec doesn't lobby for francophone rights in BC. Pierre Ross the unilingual francophone in La Malbaie QC won't likely lobby for anglo rights in Quebec.

So political pressure for more services in Chinese languages is unlikely to materialize unless the immigration levels surge even higher. And even then...

I was being the devils advocate and painting a worst case scenario.

In my own personal experience, pretty much any second or third generation Chinese Canadian that I have become acquainted with is highly assimilated into the mainstream and speaks unaccented Canadian English. They are every bit as Canadian as any other native born citizen is. Mind you, I'm talking about Chinese Canadians living in the Maritimes where the diaspora is pretty thin. Things could be a lot different in BC. I don't know.........

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In my own personal experience, pretty much any second or third generation Chinese Canadian that I have become acquainted with is highly assimilated into the mainstream and speaks unaccented Canadian English. They are every bit as Canadian as any other native born citizen is. Mind you, I'm talking about Chinese Canadians living in the Maritimes where the diaspora is pretty thin. Things could be a lot different in BC. I don't know.........

This also holds true in the GTA where there is a big Chinese population.

[Steveston]

Here's my two cents, as a member of a fourth-generation Asian immigrant family, and Richmond resident.

This is very much part of a larger Resistance to Change (R2C) issue. The sign language issue, along with the "monster house" issue, and to a lesser extent, the "bad drivers" issue, are parts of long-time Richmond residents' (ie. Caucasian) response to community change.

R2C has been bubbling below the surface ever since the late 90s HK capital flight, and has boiled over much more frequently since the large influx of mainland immigrants. The HK wave caused less fuss, IMO due to the British influence, which resulted in a relatively high %age of those immigrants being English-speakers.

This is less so with the Mainland immigrants. Thus, the R2C pushback has been more pronounced, and issues such as signage have come to the forefront. There are many many longtime (mainly caucasian) residents of Richmond who are having huge problems with the rate of change in Richmond -- they don't like the 2,500 sq. ft. 1960s-70s era houses (on large, 66' lots) in their established neighbourhoods being torn down and replaced with 5,500 sf McMansions which cause "extreme neighbourhood change" and "shadowing impacts" on their back yards. They don't like driving down No. 3 Road, where there used to be A&Ws and the Skyline Hotel, and seeing Asian Malls with Chinese-only signage.

On a side note, my opinion on the signage issue is "mountain out of molehill". The number of stores with Chinese-only signage is miniscule, and frankly, if a business owner wants to ignore half the population of Richmond, he does so at his own risk. I think the City is taking the proper approach, with dialogue and consultation, rather than bylaws and enforcement.

Because this is a R2C issue, I don't think it will go away in the short-term future. As mentioned by other posters, I do believe that the second generation, the one educated in our system, and growing up with other (non-Chinese) residents of Richmond, will be so well assimilated into Canadian/Metro Vancouver culture that R2C issues will gradually fade away, but that could take a generation.

[Pinion]

Disagree completely. Anyone still in Vancouver is ok with change and multiculturalism. What's happening in Richmond (and Vancouver and Burnaby) is a new ultra dominant monoculture that people think is inferior to the vibrant mix we had before. Not about race or house types, it's about culture.

But you're right in that it will go away because Canadians repel in horror from the accusation of racism, no matter how frequently and inappropriately it is used, so any attempt to do anything about it is quickly stamped out. Mainland Chinese culture is the new Vancouver culture, everyone else will just continue to leave. The only thing that will stop what's happening in Richmond from happening to the rest of metro Vancouver is some sort of massive change in immigration patterns, which is of course very possible.

I think those that think it's not a massive and sweeping cultural change either were a) born in the 90s, or didn't live here before the 90s, b) live in the outer suburbs c) are Chinese themselves d) benefit greatly from the influx, such as realtors.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Did you check to make sure they were Chinese for it to check out?

They drove right through my ad-hoc document inspection checkpoint, so no, I couldn't confirm. They were both young Asian men behind the wheel, though, as was the driver of the beautiful Audi R8 that I saw last evening with a 'N' decal.

With all of that said, I honestly don't have an issue with any of this. It's more of an ongoing bemused observation for me. I live and work in Richmond and see the daily cavalcade of supercars and luxury vehicles with young, often new drivers behind the wheel. One cannot help but notice it, especially when the cars' exquisite exhaust notes command attention.

Originally Posted by Steveston

Here's my two cents, as a member of a fourth-generation Asian immigrant family, and Richmond resident.

This is very much part of a larger Resistance to Change (R2C) issue. The sign language issue, along with the "monster house" issue, and to a lesser extent, the "bad drivers" issue, are parts of long-time Richmond residents' (ie. Caucasian) response to community change.

R2C has been bubbling below the surface ever since the late 90s HK capital flight, and has boiled over much more frequently since the large influx of mainland immigrants. The HK wave caused less fuss, IMO due to the British influence, which resulted in a relatively high %age of those immigrants being English-speakers.

This is less so with the Mainland immigrants. Thus, the R2C pushback has been more pronounced, and issues such as signage have come to the forefront. There are many many longtime (mainly caucasian) residents of Richmond who are having huge problems with the rate of change in Richmond -- they don't like the 2,500 sq. ft. 1960s-70s era houses (on large, 66' lots) in their established neighbourhoods being torn down and replaced with 5,500 sf McMansions which cause "extreme neighbourhood change" and "shadowing impacts" on their back yards. They don't like driving down No. 3 Road, where there used to be A&Ws and the Skyline Hotel, and seeing Asian Malls with Chinese-only signage.

On a side note, my opinion on the signage issue is "mountain out of molehill". The number of stores with Chinese-only signage is miniscule, and frankly, if a business owner wants to ignore half the population of Richmond, he does so at his own risk. I think the City is taking the proper approach, with dialogue and consultation, rather than bylaws and enforcement.

Because this is a R2C issue, I don't think it will go away in the short-term future. As mentioned by other posters, I do believe that the second generation, the one educated in our system, and growing up with other (non-Chinese) residents of Richmond, will be so well assimilated into Canadian/Metro Vancouver culture that R2C issues will gradually fade away, but that could take a generation.

Very well said, Steveston. The signage issue is laughable to me; such a non-issue. It's busy-bodies who lament change that are behind it, along with much of the low-level grumbling about larger houses, etc. My own light-hearted observations about near-daily sightings of supercars with teenagers, 20- and 30-somethings behind the wheel, frequently with 'N' or even 'L' plaques truly shouldn't come across as me being a part of that R2C bloc. As a Millennial who grew up in Vancouver, I am so used to and comfortable with ethnic diversity that it barely registers; it's what 'normal' is to me. I cannot help but observe that people under 40 really don't seem to be a part of the R2C bloc, while many above 40, particularly those in their 60s+ are solidly in that camp. They hate to sound racist as they opine that it isn't 'their' city any more, certainly not the one they grew up with. Well, that's true. I don't have a problem with it, but they certainly seem to and Chinese-only signage, ongoing redevelopment and intensification, and large houses are a convenient foil for their discomfort with the new normal.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Again, I still don't understand what the hubbub is all about.

Pre-1989, Richmond was basically a caucasian suburb until the HK and Taiwanese influx began. Today, Richmond is about 50% ethnic Chinese and the majority reside near the core.

Obviously a well to do demographic based upon the higher-end vehicles everywhere. Not to mention the price of real estate.

And basically north of Westminster Hwy, along No 3 Rd., a plethora of Chinese restaurants and associated businesses (even an Asian shopping complex) exist that use Chinese-only signage.

Basically the new "Chinatown" for Metro Vancouver. The old "Chinatown" near the edge of downtown Van City also only has Chinese-only signage.

Big deal.

Its a more recent Canadian invention - known as haters will hate(jealousy)

[st7860]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

I had my obligatory daily luxury car sighting with a new driver plaque and youngster behind the wheel en route to work in Richmond: today it was a Lamborghini with a 'N' (novice) graduated licence plaque, and on Sunday I saw a Tesla P85D with matte black wrap and neon pinstripe highlights, and a 'N' plaque. So anecdotally, story checks out.

Its not uncommon to see an M6 around either. The top female BMW salesperson in the world a few years ago was based in Richmond.

http://universityofbeautifulcars.tumblr.com/

[lio45]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

As a Millennial who grew up in Vancouver, I am so used to and comfortable with ethnic diversity that it barely registers;

I may be wrong but I think what bugs people in this case is precisely the lack of diversity... since so many immigrants have the same ethnic origin, they're large enough as a group to be somewhat overwhelming (and they can afford to cut themselves off from the rest with that lingusitic barrier).

If Vancouver was a very diverse city then the city's historically dominant language and planet's lingua franca (English) would be essentially mandatory for business; you wouldn't see significant amounts of businesses catering only to an unilingual group of another language. It's not the case, and that seems to be exactly the complaint here...

In places like Toronto and NYC, it's not a problem, because the sources of immigrants are pretty diversified.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

They drove right through my ad-hoc document inspection checkpoint, so no, I couldn't confirm. They were both young Asian men behind the wheel, though, as was the driver of the beautiful Audi R8 that I saw last evening with a 'N' decal.

With all of that said, I honestly don't have an issue with any of this. It's more of an ongoing bemused observation for me. I live and work in Richmond and see the daily cavalcade of supercars and luxury vehicles with young, often new drivers behind the wheel. One cannot help but notice it, especially when the cars' exquisite exhaust notes command attention.



Very well said, Steveston. The signage issue is laughable to me; such a non-issue. It's busy-bodies who lament change that are behind it, along with much of the low-level grumbling about larger houses, etc. My own light-hearted observations about near-daily sightings of supercars with teenagers, 20- and 30-somethings behind the wheel, frequently with 'N' or even 'L' plaques truly shouldn't come across as me being a part of that R2C bloc. As a Millennial who grew up in Vancouver, I am so used to and comfortable with ethnic diversity that it barely registers; it's what 'normal' is to me. I cannot help but observe that people under 40 really don't seem to be a part of the R2C bloc, while many above 40, particularly those in their 60s+ are solidly in that camp. They hate to sound racist as they opine that it isn't 'their' city any more, certainly not the one they grew up with. Well, that's true. I don't have a problem with it, but they certainly seem to and Chinese-only signage, ongoing redevelopment and intensification, and large houses are a convenient foil for their discomfort with the new normal.

In addition to that, one of the draws for people is that Vancouver is the the city with the second most abundant ethnically diverse city in Canada. Foreigners come from so many different places its funny. Even the criminal gangs are modeled after diversity in both name(U N) and membership.

[Steveston]

I honestly have no issues with Lambos or Audi R8s with Ns or Ls. There's no jealousy there whatsoever. My issue is with people with offshore drivers licenses, which may or may not have been deservedly obtained, getting a free pass to drive here without having to pass a knowledge test or a road test. The absolute lack of driving ability (both physically and mentally) is frightening, to say the least.

I don't care about signage, I don't care about big houses. I do care when I almost get run over on a daily basis by someone who clearly has no idea what they're doing while controlling (and I use that term loosely) a 3,000 lb vehicle.

[st7860]

Last year there was an amusing situation during which two Government agencies(The RCMP and ICBC) couldn't agree on whether those foreign licenses were legal.

[GlassCity]

I couldn't care less about 18 year olds driving Lamborghinis or massive stucco houses. 99% of the city's population could be Chinese for all I care. But for reasons previously mentioned the signs really bother me. It's not an "old guy cultural-NIMBY-anti-change" feeling either. I'm 20 years old and am an ESL immigrant myself (granted from a "white" country). I moved to Vancouver when I was 5 and so grew up in an already multi-cultural city. And I'm not the only one. Between Caucasians in Richmond, even among young people, it is completely socially acceptable to trash the Chinese. Even assimilated Chinese people complain about the non-English speaking Chinese. I'm not saying this is right, but it exists and "get over it" is not gonna change anything. Is simple racism a part of it? I think it is, but I think there are genuine concerns as well. Either way, do we really want to segregate our city by race? Or do we want to unite the different cultures, like Indian and Filipino which are also large communities in Richmond, into a cohesive city? I think by bringing people together we can get rid of the racial tension growing in the city and truly start building towards a colour-blind society.

Some of you are saying that it's a first generation problem and that children will assimilate. While this is true, more immigrants will keep immigrating. Are these stores ever going to become more English friendly? Or will the increasing Chinese immigration and white flight make them even more prominent? I'm leaning towards the second.

[st7860]

I suppose having English signs looks better however if lacking a certain language causes problems for one's business, that's their own responsibility for losing market share.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by st7860

I suppose having English signs looks better however if lacking a certain language causes problems for one's business, that's their own responsibility for losing market share.

But that's the thing, it doesn't cause problems for business. The Chinese population has reached the critical mass where it can support exclusively Chinese businesses, and I do realise that there aren't many now but there does seem to be a trend developing. With this critical mass, the English-speaking population becomes irrelevant and can become ignored. Nobody should be ignored. And while the obvious answer would be for English to have its own businesses, it goes back to my segregation problem. It would create two cities in one: an English one and a Chinese one, with little interaction between them. I don't think this is desirable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

But that's the thing, it doesn't cause problems for business. The Chinese population has reached the critical mass where it can support exclusively Chinese businesses, and I do realise that there aren't many now but there does seem to be a trend developing. With this critical mass, the English-speaking population becomes irrelevant and can become ignored. Nobody should be ignored. And while the obvious answer would be for English to have its own businesses, it goes back to my segregation problem. It would create two cities in one: an English one and a Chinese one, with little interaction between them. I don't think this is desirable.

I broadly agree that two parallel siloed cities is probably not desirable in the Vancouver area, but seriously... how likely is that to happen?

Your friend Dave Chan whose parents grew up in Vancouver's east end in the 70s won't be living in that hypothetical "Chinese Vancouver" you are talking about. He will be in the English Vancouver just like you. He might only venture into the Chinese Vancouver very occasionally just like you, for dim sum or something. Or an extended family gathering at some point.

Also, assuming that Vancouver gets 10,000 Chinese immigrants a year, probably 80% or more of the offspring of these people will be funnelled into the "English Vancouver" as well.

So yes, while there is an impressive surge in Chinese in some parts of Greater Vancouver at the moment, there is definitely a limit to what level of societal cohesiveness can be attained.

There are places on the Prairies or in Southern Ontario where 50-75 years ago close to 100% of the townspeople were Ukrainian, German or some other immigrant group, and the community largely functioned in that language. Today these places all function in English, in some cases in spite of the fact that the demographics have not changed that much.

Yes, we are in a different era due to technology and travel, but this will only delay things a bit. Not avert the inevitable.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

But that's the thing, it doesn't cause problems for business. The Chinese population has reached the critical mass where it can support exclusively Chinese businesses, and I do realise that there aren't many now but there does seem to be a trend developing. With this critical mass, the English-speaking population becomes irrelevant and can become ignored. Nobody should be ignored. And while the obvious answer would be for English to have its own businesses, it goes back to my segregation problem. It would create two cities in one: an English one and a Chinese one, with little interaction between them. I don't think this is desirable.

The thing is for example when Aberdeen Centre was torn down 10 years ago and rebuilt, the landlord wanted to make it into something like you described and thus put in rules that required English signs. So althoug stuff is in English, Canadians rarely venture in there. oops...

[1overcosc]

Wait, BC lets Chinese immigrants use their Chinese licenses to drive indefinitely?

In Ontario, immigrants have to surrender their home country drivers license when they get here. If they're from Australia, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, Korea, Switzerland, the UK, or the USA it can be exchanged for an Ontario license 1-2-3.

From anywhere else, including China, you have to take a road test.

And that road test has to be taken in either English or French as they are the only languages offered for the service. Meaning if you're a Chinese immigrant who can't speak English... you can't drive.