YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[moosejaw]

Atlanta is a hub for delta and pretty much the connection for any cities in the southeast
Miami is too far south as is any city in Florida. For example any large construction project in Georgia the carolinas or the gulf states it's quite often to see subcontractors from any one of the states on any given project. The south is really well connected
Also note that Atlanta is also the international hub. The airport is a monster. Don't know if it's well designed. It's pretty much looks like a prison but pretty indicative of the architecture style inspired by John Portman in the early 80s

[Johnny Aussie]

I suppose this was inevitable.

SYD Effective 17 May 2016
AC 33/34 on 77L will be reconfigured to 300 seats with the intro of Premium Economy and regular economy will go 3-4-3. Config will be J40/W24/Y236.

PEK Effective 11 May2016
AC 29/30 on 77W will be reconfigured to 400 seats with the intro of Premium Economy
and regular economy will go 3-4-3. Config will be J40/W24/Y336.

Also

LHR and HKG effective 30 March 2016
AC 854/855 and AC 7/8 both on 77W will be reconfigured to 450 seats.
Config will be J28/W24/Y398.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by ThunderbirdFan

Aspiring Avgeek here (I just read posts in this thread from the last 3 years over the course of the last few day), and one question I have is, how the hell does Atlanta have the busiest airport in the world? Not exactly the biggest tourist destintiion and certainly can't compete with level of business travellers in NYC and London. So what am I missing? Does anyone have an explanation for this? I mean sure Atlanta is a big city at 6.1 million CSA, but I mean it ranks 11th in CSA populations, so how is the Atlanta airport overperforming?

ATL being biggest hub is due to:
- History. ATL was the main hub for both DL and Eastern. The airport was built for domestic USA connections for both terminal and runway.
- Capacity. The airport had large number runway and terminal capacity. As well as sufficient land available to grow.
- Weather, ATL does not have large number of weather delays and cancellations. Also the wind direction doesn't change, reducing the requirement for cross wind runways.
- ATlanta has only one large airport, where as most larger cities have 2-3 airports.
- prior to the introduction of A320 and then 737NG, onky the 757 could do nonstop transcontinental flights. The other options were widebody aircraft. ATL and ORD were the first cities that could offer single connections throughout the USA.
- subsequent to the demise of EA, DL took over most of the operations at ATL, making it their global hub.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I suppose this was inevitable.

Effective 17 May 2016
AC 33/34 on 77L will be reconfigured to 300 seats with the intro of Premium Economy and regular economy will go 3-4-3. Config will be J40/W24/Y236.

PEK Effective 11 May2016
AC 29/30 on 77W will be reconfigured to 400 seats with the intro of Premium Economy
and regular economy will go 3-4-3. Config will be J40/W24/Y336.

Also

LHR and HKG effective 30 March 2016
AC 854/855 and AC 7/8 both on 77W will be reconfigured to 450 seats.
Config will be J28/W24/Y398.

I debate the notion that additional services are going to High Density format. The legacy HD aircraft are staying at 458 seats while the traditional format moves from 350 to 400 seats. Yes AC is moving to the 3x4x3 format, but so are most other airlines.

Introduction of true premium economy cabin onto SYD is a good thing. QF has it on their A380 and will likely do the same on the 789. In order to have value in PE, the airlines must shrink Economy. Otherwise, the PE cabin will pull people from Business Class.

[trofirhen]

I wonder if such a configuration - extending PE - would make flights to Delhi viable?
I know the market is mostly family, and therein low yield, but there are seemingly enough East Indian businesspeople who could afford the PE.

[casper]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I wonder if such a configuration - extending PE - would make flights to Delhi viable?
I know the market is mostly family, and therein low yield, but there are seemingly enough East Indian businesspeople who could afford the PE.

I don't know about India. But Premium Economy is a very nice addition. The cost of International Business Class was to high to me to justify paying it, so I only used it when I could get it on points, upgrade or rerouted by the airline. Premium Economy is much more affordable. I would pay for it.

I would think the logical aircraft for India would be a 787-9 with 30/21/247 or more likely the 787-8 is 20/21/210.

The 777-200LR is 40/24/226. It looks like they are positioning it as the premium market aircraft in the fleet. Given they are keeping it on the Sydney flight there must be a market for the business seats..

[Millennium2002]

I believe I just saw a Lufthansa B747-800 flying over Knight Street bridge on way inbound...

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by casper

The 777-200LR is 40/24/226. It looks like they are positioning it as the premium market aircraft in the fleet. Given they are keeping it on the Sydney flight there must be a market for the business seats..

There is a huge market to SYD for J. Also with Air NZ going daily over the winter is another sign of decent demand. Qantas will be just itching to get in there with their new 787-9s. Until then they will just keep teasing YVR with their seasonal 744s.

There is quite the demand for J to PEK as well. Noting AC is putting their bigger J cabin to PEK vs HKG.

Air China to PEK presently double daily until the end of peak summer. Each with an 8 seat F cabin.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by casper

The 777-200LR is 40/24/226. It looks like they are positioning it as the premium market aircraft in the fleet. Given they are keeping it on the Sydney flight there must be a market for the business seats..

The 77L was purchased for specific routes: YYZ-YVR-SYD and YYZ-HKG. These 2 routes use 4.5 aircraft. Plus one spare aircraft for a fleet of 6. The 77L Europe trips are just filler for the two primary routes.

Yes SYD has big business class demand out of YVR. Just about any company paid trips will allow business class per travel policy. YYZ-HKG us the king market for AC J class. The surprise upcomming market is YYZ-HND, the route is doing better than YYZ-NRT in both cabins.

For YVR-DEL, the 789 might be the perfect aircraft. Especially if YYZ-DEL turns into a good profit Center. I have heard second hand that 789 trip costs are almost identical to the 788; however the789 has 50 more seats. For clarity I'm not talking identical CASM, but rather overall trip cost. Send the 788 for $100 or the 789 for $105. If this pans out ( which AC will have true comparatives in about 6 months), the 789 is the prime airplane of the Dreamliner fleet.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Cage

The 77L was purchased for specific routes: YYZ-YVR-SYD and YYZ-HKG. These 2 routes use 4.5 aircraft. Plus one spare aircraft for a fleet of 6. The 77L Europe trips are just filler for the two primary routes.

Yes SYD has big business class demand out of YVR. Just about any company paid trips will allow business class per travel policy. YYZ-HKG us the king market for AC J class. The surprise upcomming market is YYZ-HND, the route is doing better than YYZ-NRT in both cabins.

For YVR-DEL, the 789 might be the perfect aircraft. Especially if YYZ-DEL turns into a good profit Center. I have heard second hand that 789 trip costs are almost identical to the 788; however the789 has 50 more seats. For clarity I'm not talking identical CASM, but rather overall trip cost. Send the 788 for $100 or the 789 for $105. If this pans out ( which AC will have true comparatives in about 6 months), the 789 is the prime airplane of the Dreamliner fleet.

I think YYZ-Haneda is perhaps doing so well because Haneda is really such a better-positioned airport; closer to the city centre.

And do you think YVR will get a route to DEL? I know the market is big, but the yield is small. If they can increase the yield, would AC give us the luxury
of a YVR-DEL nonstop, or still force us to change in YYZ?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

And do you think YVR will get a route to DEL? I know the market is big, but the yield is small. If they can increase the yield, would AC give us the luxury
of a YVR-DEL nonstop, or still force us to change in YYZ?

From the past three quarterly conference calls, AC is not chasing yield, rather they are chasing gross margin. The densification of long haul aircraft has the effect of depressing yields. That the problem with investment community not fully understanding the AC strategy. Yield is down but operating profit is up. To think of it mathmatically, current AC 77w confit is 350 seats. For argument sake lets say AC makes $1000 on a flight, but could make $1100 if they increased seats to 400. This has the effect of decrease yield by 10 cents as 1000/350 is greater than 1100/400. However the aircraft cost side is the same ( same plane, crew costs, fuel costs, etc.).

This principle will work in Favour of YVR-DEL on the 789.

[Klazu]

Very informed comments, Cage. Always much appreciated.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Cage

This principle will work in Favour of YVR-DEL on the 789.

And this is exactly why the 788 and 789 are game changers for many routes.

What wouldn't have been viable in the past, instantly become viable because of the economics of these planes... as demonstrated by Cage as a good example.

AC YVR-DEL, AC YVR-BNE, QF SYD-YVR (the most hinted at and rumoured new 789 route for Qantas) and QF MEL-DFW (the one route the QF CEO singled out as an ideal route for their 789s they have just purchased).

[Vagabond]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

And this is exactly why the 788 and 789 are game changers for many routes.

What wouldn't have been viable in the past, instantly become viable because of the economics of these planes... as demonstrated by Cage as a good example.

AC YVR-DEL, QF SYD-YVR (the most hinted at and rumoured new 789 route for Qantas) and QF MEL-DFW (the one route the QF CEO singled out as an ideal route for their 789s they have just purchased).

The wildcard factor on the YVR-DEL route will be how deeply the Chinese carriers will be willing to cut to maintain their VFR market share on this route. For example, Air China just started service direct to Mumbai from PEK, and is currently heavily discounting fares ex-YVR (a recent sale saw return flights for $899 incl. tax!) I can see a similar price blood bath in store to DEL in the event AC starts direct service. The likes of Cathay Pacific could even consider "joining the party", as I know they are relatively dependent on the India market during the winter to offset lower off-season travel to/from the rest of Asia.

I'd still love to see a non-stop YVR-DEL flight, but it's a tricky route to figure out, given there are so many easy one-stop options. If any route would test the theory (put forward recently on this forum) that Canadians are willing to pay a premium for non-stop service, YVR-DEL would be it

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Vagabond

The wildcard factor on the YVR-DEL route will be how deeply the Chinese carriers will be willing to cut to maintain their VFR market share on this route. ...............

I'd still love to see a non-stop YVR-DEL flight, but it's a tricky route to figure out, given there are so many easy one-stop options. If any route would test the theory (put forward recently on this forum) that Canadians are willing to pay a premium for non-stop service, YVR-DEL would be it

May I say that I think you've nailed it with absolute precision. Great analysis of this somewhat tricky problem.
(from an outsider's view; as such you gave me a lot of insight)

[hoboman27]

YVR signs memorandum with PVG
http://www.richmond-news.com/busines...ghai-1.2031166

Usually see airlines signing deals with airports, rarely see airport/airport deals. Does anyone know what's involved and what this means for the two airports?

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by hoboman27

YVR signs memorandum with PVG
http://www.richmond-news.com/busines...ghai-1.2031166

Usually see airlines signing deals with airports, rarely see airport/airport deals. Does anyone know what's involved and what this means for the two airports?

I was wondering the same. In addition to the good PR, i'm guessing there would be technical or other knowledge sharing and exchanges, although not sure how much would be involved here (Hongqiao Airport is managed as a JV with the Hong Kong Airport Authority, so no lack of access to technical expertise). Likely it's relationship building as a prelude to further air links. China represents a huge number of flights for YVR, so it makes sense to build closer ties. There could even be opportunities for Vantage Airport Group in China. Despite the recent bad economic news coming out of China, there's been a huge amount of airport construction there.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

I was wondering the same. In addition to the good PR, i'm guessing there would be technical or other knowledge sharing and exchanges, although not sure how much would be involved here (Hongqiao Airport is managed as a JV with the Hong Kong Airport Authority, so no lack of access to technical expertise). Likely it's relationship building as a prelude to further air links. China represents a huge number of flights for YVR, so it makes sense to build closer ties. There could even be opportunities for Vantage Airport Group in China. Despite the recent bad economic news coming out of China, there's been a huge amount of airport construction there.

Translating PR speak.....

We will share ideas with each other and try to learn from each others mistake.

We will have a common message with airlines where we try to encourage them to operate more flights between the two of us.

Since it is an MOU with is contractually not legally binding in Canada. We don't really have to do anything. But we promise to play nice, have some joint press conferences.

[Chikinlittle]

For anyone who flies trans-Atlantic, or would like to, it's a pretty good time to book a ticket if you want to fly up front. I just looked into this and AC has matched an unadvertised KL/AF business class sale to many destinations in Europe, Middle East, and Africa.

http://bit.ly/1NFUiwK

Eg. YVR-JNB on AC/SA via FRA for as little as $3016.95 tax in, IN BUSINESS CLASS! BOOM.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

For anyone who flies trans-Atlantic, or would like to, it's a pretty good time to book a ticket if you want to fly up front. I just looked into this and AC has matched an unadvertised KL/AF business class sale to many destinations in Europe, Middle East, and Africa.

http://bit.ly/1NFUiwK

Eg. YVR-JNB on AC/SA via FRA for as little as $3016.95 tax in, IN BUSINESS CLASS! BOOM.

Thank you for that link. Hope AC makes some profit with that.
Business Class, I am informed, is essentially what can make a route viable or not.
If, in fact, there were enough people in Vancouver able to afford Business Class to Delhi ... that might cinch that one.
(although previously mentioned, excuse me for that pls)