PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Urbana]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

The new design is a big improvement from that white and blue Lego-looking tower... shows off the old Presbyterian University Hospital bldg much more prominently.

I wouldn't bet on anything too huge for that corner lot. Hospitals like to create a campus-type environment, and they seem to like green space more and more... even in an urban campus environment.

But of course they also like to land bank, so I certainly wouldn't rule a big development out there. Hospital complexes are an entirely different animal than other developments though. Financing considerations aside, connectivity between buildings in the complex is a major consideration... and so what we usually see with hospital expansion is the "pile" that just keeps being added on to... like a sandcastle that you keep adding one more little plastic cup sand turret to.

After my original post on this, I did some digging. It seems that in UPMC's 2014 institutional master plan they include the site in their "10 year development envelope." So it seems that they intent to put something there.



Source: http://www.upmc.com/locations/hospitals/presbyterian/Documents/oakland-master-plan-2014.pdf

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Minivan Werner

I know those tracks in Evans City are used by heavy rail transporters (or whatever you call them), so I don't know if they could work steady passenger rail around the existing traffic? And since the gauge is different you'd have to switch trains to transfer from the existing LRT to the north end. Although that's not a huge deal.

So my plan would be to use DMUs. Last I knew you have a couple options for using DMUs on freight lines. If you want to run them mixed, then you have to use FRA-compliant DMUs (which are heavier, less efficient, and much more expensive). However, you can also segregate by time--as in freight only runs at night, commuter by day. In that case you don't need to use FRA-compliant DMUs.

Personally, I would reactivate the plan to run a set of rails up the East Busway in the Strip to around Penn Station, then use the tunnel under the Steel Building into the unused platform at Steel Plaza. This was the same basic gameplan that evolved for possible commuter rail out to Arnold, and indeed could be part of the same overall system with a little coordination on timing. Steel Plaza would then be the transfer point to the T.

My other concern would be that it wouldn't provide service to any decently-sized population centers. Valencia, Mars and Evans City are pretty tiny. A lot of people might have a Valencia or Mars address but that's mostly due to the sprawl and housing developments outside of it. But Etna & Millvale are a lot bigger.

So here is the case I would make. Most of the new development up there is sprawly anyway, so you are really going to be relying on TOD to get you walk-up riders, and otherwise you are looking at park-and-rides.

For TOD, places like Zelienople, Evans City, and Mars are actually pretty perfect. They were laid out in the rail era to begin with, they still have some charming historic commercial and residential buildings, and generally speaking are well-suited to becoming "bedroom communities" for Pittsburgh. In contrast, TOD actually works much worse when you place commuter rail lines in or along major highways.

On the park-and-ride side, I would first note I think there is less need for, and indeed would be less use of, a rail line when it comes to people already right along I-79/I-279. If you look at population density maps of the North Hills, however, it becomes clear there are a decent number of people spread out east of I-79/I-279. Seven Fields, for example, is about halfway to Mars from Cranberry. Then you have the line of development around Route 19 from Wexford down through McCandless and Ross, but also the line of development along Route 8 from Bakerstown down through Gibsonia, Hampton Township, Allison Park, and Glenshaw.

This rail line departs Route 8 around Duncan Avenue in Allison Park. So, you could have a station there, maybe at Wildwood Road, and at Gibsonia Road (aka Route 910). That would potentially allow you to serve both these corridors of development--Allison Park would also serve Ross, Wildwood would serve McCandless and Hampton, and Gibsonia would also serve Bakerstown and Wexford. Those Wildwood and Gibsonia stations wouldn't have much around them, but they are strategically located in terms of east-west roads, and ultimately you could look at some TOD as well as park and rides at those locations.

To try to improve times I am not sure I would have a lot more stations. It might be something like:

Zelienople
Evans City
Mars (also for Cranberry, Seven Fields, and Valencia)
Gibsonia (also for Wexford and Bakerstown)
Wildwood (also for McCandless and Hampton Township)
Allison Park (also for Ross)
Etna
Millvale
Strip
Downtown

I think that is about 35 miles total, and without too many stops, I would hope that would take under an hour for the whole line.

Edit: By the way, the line continues past Zelienople through Ellwood City up to West Pittsburg, and from there you could continue up to New Castle. There is also a junction between Evans City and Zelienople that would take you out to Butler. I'm not sure it would make sense to take commuter rail out that far, but you could.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Urbana

After my original post on this, I did some digging. It seems that in UPMC's 2014 institutional master plan they include the site in their "10 year development envelope." So it seems that they intent to put something there.



Source: http://www.upmc.com/locations/hospitals/presbyterian/Documents/oakland-master-plan-2014.pdf

Oh, I'm sure that their going to build on the site of the white and blue tower, but it certainly looks as if the plans are to keep the corner "campus gateway" green space. The 25 year plan shows the same.

[Evergrey]

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/dev...ay-be-for-sale-soon/stories/201508180185

One Oxford Centre in Downtown Pittsburgh may be for sale soon

August 18, 2015 4:00 PM

By Mark Belko / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


One Oxford Centre, one of Downtown's most prominent and distinctive buildings, soon could be up for grabs.

Oxford Development Co., the developer that erected the 45-story skyscraper at 301 Grant Street in the early 1980s during the city's Second Renaissance, is considering a possible sale of the iconic property.

It has hired Pittsburgh-based HFF Inc., which has offices in One Oxford Centre, to explore a sale or a possible refinancing.

In a statement, Oxford tied the decision to the strength of the Pittsburgh Class A office market, saying that demand for the acquisition of Downtown real estate is at an all-time high.

"National institutional buyers continue to be drawn to Pittsburgh's [central business district] and its proven growth potential," said Steve Guy, Oxford's CEO and president.

"The current strength of the CBD Class A office market and increased interest of institutional investors have led us to explore a sale of this extraordinary building."

The aluminum and glass octagonal towers that make up One Oxford Centre opened in April 1983 during the height of the Second Renaissance, One Oxford was among several new office towers built at the time, among them the six-building PPG Place complex near Market Square and One Mellon Center, now known as BNY Mellon Center, on Grant Street.

...

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

So my plan would be to use DMUs. Last I knew you have a couple options for using DMUs on freight lines. If you want to run them mixed, then you have to use FRA-compliant DMUs (which are heavier, less efficient, and much more expensive). However, you can also segregate by time--as in freight only runs at night, commuter by day. In that case you don't need to use FRA-compliant DMUs.

Personally, I would reactivate the plan to run a set of rails up the East Busway in the Strip to around Penn Station, then use the tunnel under the Steel Building into the unused platform at Steel Plaza. This was the same basic gameplan that evolved for possible commuter rail out to Arnold, and indeed could be part of the same overall system with a little coordination on timing. Steel Plaza would then be the transfer point to the T.



So here is the case I would make. Most of the new development up there is sprawly anyway, so you are really going to be relying on TOD to get you walk-up riders, and otherwise you are looking at park-and-rides.

For TOD, places like Zelienople, Evans City, and Mars are actually pretty perfect. They were laid out in the rail era to begin with, they still have some charming historic commercial and residential buildings, and generally speaking are well-suited to becoming "bedroom communities" for Pittsburgh. In contrast, TOD actually works much worse when you place commuter rail lines in or along major highways.

On the park-and-ride side, I would first note I think there is less need for, and indeed would be less use of, a rail line when it comes to people already right along I-79/I-279. If you look at population density maps of the North Hills, however, it becomes clear there are a decent number of people spread out east of I-79/I-279. Seven Fields, for example, is about halfway to Mars from Cranberry. Then you have the line of development around Route 19 from Wexford down through McCandless and Ross, but also the line of development along Route 8 from Bakerstown down through Gibsonia, Hampton Township, Allison Park, and Glenshaw.

This rail line departs Route 8 around Duncan Avenue in Allison Park. So, you could have a station there, maybe at Wildwood Road, and at Gibsonia Road (aka Route 910). That would potentially allow you to serve both these corridors of development--Allison Park would also serve Ross, Wildwood would serve McCandless and Hampton, and Gibsonia would also serve Bakerstown and Wexford. Those Wildwood and Gibsonia stations wouldn't have much around them, but they are strategically located in terms of east-west roads, and ultimately you could look at some TOD as well as park and rides at those locations.

To try to improve times I am not sure I would have a lot more stations. It might be something like:

Zelienople
Evans City
Mars (also for Cranberry, Seven Fields, and Valencia)
Gibsonia (also for Wexford and Bakerstown)
Wildwood (also for McCandless and Hampton Township)
Allison Park (also for Ross)
Etna
Millvale
Strip
Downtown

I think that is about 35 miles total, and without too many stops, I would hope that would take under an hour for the whole line.

Edit: By the way, the line continues past Zelienople through Ellwood City up to West Pittsburg, and from there you could continue up to New Castle. There is also a junction between Evans City and Zelienople that would take you out to Butler. I'm not sure it would make sense to take commuter rail out that far, but you could.

I like your thinking. Altho all this talk and having been to Falls Church/Tysons Corner twice this summer, I wish the city could have implemented a metro system like they had planned decades ago. That WMATA is a fast, efficient, reliable system that was very well planned out. Pittsburgh could have had something similar.

I guess having a commuter rail system like what Philly has wouldn't be bad either. DC suburbia is far more denser than Philly or Pittsburgh. The light rail vehicles are not very fast; those trains should be doing higher speeds than 5 mph; they have a top speed of 50! Why can't they do at least 35 or 40? I was on a LRV on the new extension, and the train was not fast at all.

[WillyC]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/dev...ay-be-for-sale-soon/stories/201508180185

Word on the banking street is it is time to cash out.

[WillyC]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

I think you're being optimistic about parent's willing to use the feeder schools. The reason why is nicely summed up by your frank, but correct observation that,


White parents aren't using the feeder schools because they fear eventually ending up at Westinghouse or Milliorns. It's a positive feedback loop that leads to declining enrollment across PPS because not enough charter programs are being offered to meet the needs and wants of middle class (regardless of race) families in the city.

It would work if families in East Liberty, Stanton Heights, Lawrenceville Highland Park, etc. sent their kids to the neighborhood school, but very few parents want their kid to be the pioneer.

This is going to be the issue determining whether or not the millennials moving into the city end up staying in the city. And PPS doesn't seem to be doing anything to address it.

I live in the East End and wouldn't dare send my kids to PPS. You are 100% correct, no one wants their kids to be the pioneers.

It is going to be the deciding issue on whether millennials stay in the city. I've got friends that live in the East End as well and many have been having the discussion if whether they should stay, crimp expenses, and pony up for private school or move out of the city.

Honestly, I don't think this is an issue PPS can resolve.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by WillyC

I live in the East End and wouldn't dare send my kids to PPS. You are 100% correct, no one wants their kids to be the pioneers.

It is going to be the deciding issue on whether millennials stay in the city. I've got friends that live in the East End as well and many have been having the discussion if whether they should stay, crimp expenses, and pony up for private school or move out of the city.

Honestly, I don't think this is an issue PPS can resolve.

If enough demand for good schools in the city exists (read: concerned and actively involved white people), then you'll see good schools in the city.

[AaronPGH]

Originally Posted by TBone7281

I noticed a hearing, uhh... notice, while on my walk this morning:

I heard a totally absurd rumor last week about the terminal building that made me scream "WHAT?!" But "urban industrial" kind of lines up with it. I'm having a hard time understanding the papers you posted though. Are they adding urban industrial zoning to the whole mix? Or it's going strictly industrial?I can't find that term anywhere, but I could be blind.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

I heard a totally absurd rumor last week about the terminal building that made me scream "WHAT?!" But "urban industrial" kind of lines up with it. I'm having a hard time understanding the papers you posted though. Are they adding urban industrial zoning to the whole mix? Or it's going strictly industrial?I can't find that term anywhere, but I could be blind.

What was the rumor?

[AaronPGH]

check your PMs

[GeneW]

Weird almost zero content article about the Shakespeare Street Giant Eagle Plaza.

Thomas Karet, CEO of Echo Realty, which owns the plaza and is landlord to Giant Eagle and the other tenants, said he’s not sure what the future holds. He’s waiting for Giant Eagle to decide what it wants to do.

“The short answer is that we don’t know what we are going to do yet,” he said.

However, Echo officials are “keeping our options open” by not renewing the leases of “a bunch of tenants,” he said. The current merchants in the plaza are a state liquor store, Family Dollar, Modern Hair Beauty Supply, Rent-A-Center and Dollar Bank.

All of the leases expire next year, Mr. Karet said. That does not necessarily mean that the stores will be leaving.

“We’ve extended leases in the past on a year-to-year basis. We could do that. There’s obviously a lot of redevelopment in that neck of the woods. It would be great for us to improve the plaza, but it really depends on what Giant Eagle wants to do,” he said.

[Private Dick]

^ Yeah, I read that this morning and was waiting for any piece of interesting information... other than the leases maybe not being renewed... it didn't come.

Though, there's obviously a lot of chatter going on about this plaza, since things have been talked about for years regarding its possible redevelopment and with all the construction around it. There's no doubt in my mind that Giant Eagle isn't in some sort of planning stage with this highly valuable parcel, and no-info "news" pieces like this are often appetite whetters to get more people talking in anticipation of any type of actual announcement... and to help drive demand and property value up, of course.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

If enough demand for good schools in the city exists (read: concerned and actively involved white people), then you'll see good schools in the city.

I am on the opposite side of this conversation. I have two black children that attend PPS middle and high school. I am pleased with their education thus far and made the decision to stay in the city because of diversity. As a black parent I refuse to send my kids to a mediocre suburban school district. Even worse would be to send them to a 95%+ white school district. As a black parent I wanted my children exposed to black culture and experience black teachers and leadership. Both children attend Obama and previously attended Fulton. Both schools had a wealth of caring black and white professionals with black male principals. It is vital for black children (especially poor) to see professional black men in leadership positions. Since the PPS started the Promise scholarship fund many of my suburban (black) friends have moved back into the city. My sister decided to stay in the city as well. My sisters children attend Colfax and she is pleased with children's school as well

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

^ Yeah, I read that this morning and was waiting for any piece of interesting information... other than the leases maybe not being renewed... it didn't come.

Though, there's obviously a lot of chatter going on about this plaza, since things have been talked about for years regarding its possible redevelopment and with all the construction around it. There's no doubt in my mind that Giant Eagle isn't in some sort of planning stage with this highly valuable parcel, and no-info "news" pieces like this are often appetite whetters to get more people talking in anticipation of any type of actual announcement... and to help drive demand and property value up, of course.

I hope the redevelopment includes re-establishing the street wall. The developer should reconfigure the site so that it ties into the new transportation center. Multi leveled or rear parking would be ideal.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

I am on the opposite side of this conversation. I have two black children that attend PPS middle and high school. I am pleased with their education thus far and made the decision to stay in the city because of diversity. As a black parent I refuse to send my kids to a mediocre suburban school district. Even worse would be to send them to a 95%+ white school district. As a black parent I wanted my children exposed to black culture and experience black teachers and leadership. Both children attend Obama and previously attended Fulton. Both schools had a wealth of caring black and white professionals with black male principals. It is vital for black children (especially poor) to see professional black men in leadership positions. Since the PPS started the Promise scholarship fund many of my suburban (black) friends have moved back into the city. My sister decided to stay in the city as well. My sisters children attend Colfax and she is pleased with children's school as well

I don't think we're on opposite sides of the conversation though. I was just stating what is an unfortunate truth in almost all urban areas in the US. That unfortunate truth being that when enough white people make noise about something, in this case, quality of education and all that that encompasses in an urban area, change occurs. I support everything you say. And as a former teacher in a 85% minority (Black and Latino, primarily) high school, I have a special appreciation for your words.

And overall, in my experience, Pittsburgh public schools are much, much better than what many cities offer.

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

I hope the redevelopment includes re-establishing the street wall. The developer should reconfigure the site so that it ties into the new transportation center. Multi leveled or rear parking would be ideal.

Definitely. The existing design is quite dated and a terrible waste of space.

[qwho]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

I hope the redevelopment includes re-establishing the street wall. The developer should reconfigure the site so that it ties into the new transportation center. Multi leveled or rear parking would be ideal.

I hope you're right, and that up and down the street gets some love too. Maybe Mcdonalds near Trader Joe's will opt for an urban style makeover kinda like the one in State College, and some of the parking there could be developed as well...

Problem is, we'll never see the 'Villiage of Shadyside' townhomes area redeveloped.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

^ Yeah, I read that this morning and was waiting for any piece of interesting information... other than the leases maybe not being renewed... it didn't come.

Though, there's obviously a lot of chatter going on about this plaza, since things have been talked about for years regarding its possible redevelopment and with all the construction around it. There's no doubt in my mind that Giant Eagle isn't in some sort of planning stage with this highly valuable parcel, and no-info "news" pieces like this are often appetite whetters to get more people talking in anticipation of any type of actual announcement... and to help drive demand and property value up, of course.

Definitely this makes more sense, sort of a thinly veiled PR.

At least the article does rightly note that Echo and Giant Eagle share the same ownership and they most certainly do coordinate their efforts that way even if they have separate management, etc. Echo may sometimes still end up landlord to Giant Eagle competitors. (Echo itself is actually two arms if I remember right, one doing management for non-owned retail space and another that actually develops and owns retail centers.) But being in the retail development and management business no doubt helps Giant Eagle keep away competitors at times. And when it doesn't, at least they make money either way.

It may well be true, though, that the Echo CEO doesn't actually yet know what the Giant Eagle store decision makers are going to do. If the Market District on Centre were actually a good store layout there might be less question. But that store is really cramped already seems to me. So it isn't a slam dunk that they just ditch that location. They'd probably rather just leave it as is but from a real estate perspective that might start to be a bad idea.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I don't think we're on opposite sides of the conversation though. I was just stating what is an unfortunate truth in almost all urban areas in the US. That unfortunate truth being that when enough white people make noise about something, in this case, quality of education and all that that encompasses in an urban area, change occurs. I support everything you say. And as a former teacher in a 85% minority (Black and Latino, primarily) high school, I have a special appreciation for your words.

And overall, in my experience, Pittsburgh public schools are much, much better than what many cities offer.



Definitely. The existing design is quite dated and a terrible waste of space.

PPS is better than most large urban school districts. I have no concerns about the well being of my children and the quality of their education. Coming from a family of teachers and graduating from PPS eased my fears. I am pleased with our decision to stay put.

[TBone7281]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

I heard a totally absurd rumor last week about the terminal building that made me scream "WHAT?!" But "urban industrial" kind of lines up with it. I'm having a hard time understanding the papers you posted though. Are they adding urban industrial zoning to the whole mix? Or it's going strictly industrial?I can't find that term anywhere, but I could be blind.

Your guess is as good as mine... it looked to me that the notice and the other documents all said different things. I was sort of hoping someone on here understood real estate/zoning gibberish and could translate. Then again, maybe the lack of clarity is intentional.