Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project - Page 12

fusili · #**221** Posted **Aug 18, 2015, 2:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Expropriations for churches is ludicrously expensive mostly because the city has made the parking requirement very high so lots of land is required for the replacement property. Heads of compensation can be very high compared to the commercial value of the land as we saw on the west line.

I've dealt with this quite a bit. Not the compensation, but getting permits for churches, and it is indeed ridiculously hard. The parking requirement is essentially one stall per four people (measured in different ways whether it is linear seating, fixed seating, standing room etc, but it all calculates out to roughly the same), which forces churches out to Rockyview and Foothills county to get enough parking or, strangely, into industrial areas. Those parking requirements definitely have to be revisited.

Fuzz · #**222** Posted **Aug 18, 2015, 3:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusili

I've dealt with this quite a bit. Not the compensation, but getting permits for churches, and it is indeed ridiculously hard. The parking requirement is essentially one stall per four people (measured in different ways whether it is linear seating, fixed seating, standing room etc, but it all calculates out to roughly the same), which forces churches out to Rockyview and Foothills county to get enough parking or, strangely, into industrial areas. Those parking requirements definitely have to be revisited.

Do they? The older churches, like on 4th st by 30th ave and up 4th st and Northmount don't seam to have those parking requirements. The result is cars all over the place in Sundays. I tried to go to the Shoppers Drug Mart, and their parking lot was full of church goers. Maybe churches should run a Sunday bus if they don't want to accommodate cars.

fusili · #**223** Posted **Aug 18, 2015, 3:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Do they? The older churches, like on 4th st by 30th ave and up 4th st and Northmount don't seam to have those parking requirements. The result is cars all over the place in Sundays. I tried to go to the Shoppers Drug Mart, and their parking lot was full of church goers. Maybe churches should run a Sunday bus if they don't want to accommodate cars.

Those older churches are grandfathered. Or, properly stated, they are legal non-conforming uses (they have a DP, or were built before we had a land use bylaw, or in a weird year, 1973 I think it was, when we didn't have a land use bylaw, but are now not in conformance with the bylaw as it stands today). Most inner city churches don't have much parking at all, which is why they are so valuable. It would be impossible to get a church like that approved today.

Fuzz · #**224** Posted **Aug 18, 2015, 3:56 PM**

That was my point, that they should be required to have parking, otherwise we end up with the situation the old churches have.

RyLucky · #**225** Posted **Aug 18, 2015, 4:31 PM**

Personal secular opinion on a churches and urban planning:

A small church (or other centre of worship) with little or no parking adds needed diversity to streetscape and is fully capable of offering the same social services as larger churches, and it can vitalize neighbourhoods whenever people gather for mass, service, wedding, etc. Also, small churches built into the community are more accessible to elderly who cannot drive. These small venues are also easier to rent out for concerts.

A giant church next to an arterial road serve folks just fine, and probably for cheaper, but lack some of the community benefits of a smaller church, such as accessibility and effect on streetscape.

So much like retail in Calgary, smaller scale costs more but has greater social benefit, larger scale vv.

Ideally, I'd love to see more senior housing built on church parking lots. Same for golf course parking lots. Same for mall parking lots. Especially near C-trains. (there! I managed to tie it back to the thread topic)

fusili · #**226** Posted **Aug 18, 2015, 4:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That was my point, that they should be required to have parking, otherwise we end up with the situation the old churches have.

I like the situation we have with old churches. Who the hell needs parking on Sunday mornings anyway?

Fuzz · #**227** Posted **Aug 18, 2015, 4:47 PM**

If I need to shop on the weekend, I like to go Sunday before church gets out. After that the roads get dangerous and the lines at the grocery store are torture.

MasterG · #**228** Posted **Aug 18, 2015, 8:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusili

I like the situation we have with old churches. Who the hell needs parking on Sunday mornings anyway?

Various Beltline churches are sitting on some of the biggest undeveloped properties in the form of their inordinate sized parking lots. A few thousand residential units could probably be placed over them, with the same amount of parking restored underground. And that's assuming no one tears down the church itself.

VerticalCity · #**229** Posted **Aug 19, 2015, 9:12 PM**

In the case of Centre Street Church at 40th ave, there is already a fairly congested BRT/regular service bus stop with sidewalk that stretches for half the block, and if the city follows its plans of going with LRV service, it would be ridiculous (for cost reasons and social reasons) to remove that entire church building for what should be a fairly minimal station platform.

Pushing that church out would actually do a lot of harm to that community. Highland park/tuxedo is largely low-income and the church provides a lot of support in the form of food hampers, after-school programs for children of families in need etc.

Halofire · #**230** Posted **Aug 19, 2015, 9:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by VerticalCity

Pushing that church out would actually do a lot of harm to that community. Highland park/tuxedo is largely low-income and the church provides a lot of support in the form of food hampers, after-school programs for children of families in need etc.

What are you basing this on? I'm genuinely curious.

Their other, mega-church is only a couple blocks away I wouldn't doubt they could probably handle selling this property off (if they felt so inclined) while still offering those services to the community.

But also, there's a chunk of demo'd land just to the south of 40th that I'm sure would be easier for the city to acquire (if it isn't already theirs).

VerticalCity · #**231** Posted **Aug 19, 2015, 10:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halofire

What are you basing this on? I'm genuinely curious.

I know because I've attended their church for quite some time. The main mega-building is used primarily for their huge weekend services, and could possibly be re-purposed to have smaller gathering spaces/classrooms, but it would be costly. The building on Centre Street has many classroom spaces as well as a gym and hosts gatherings for youth/university students, ESL classes, recreational basketball etc.

They probably could and would continue the community involvement, but with less capacity to host the above type of activities. That being said, the building right on centre street does have too much parking, and the city probably could make an arrangement to turn some of that chronically empty lot into a smaller park-and-ride.

Centre Street church would probably be one of the main drivers for off-peak usage of a station at this location, especially on the weekend.

Halofire · #**232** Posted **Aug 19, 2015, 10:40 PM**

That makes sense. However, the church could potentially build those facilities on the main campus with the proceeds from a sale, so I don't think it would be a huge negative for either the church or city. And since the facilities have different peak usage times as you mentioned, additional parking may not be necessary.

fusili · #**233** Posted **Aug 19, 2015, 10:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterG

Various Beltline churches are sitting on some of the biggest undeveloped properties in the form of their inordinate sized parking lots. A few thousand residential units could probably be placed over them, with the same amount of parking restored underground. And that's assuming no one tears down the church itself.

Dammit. Fair point. I hate the surface parking lots in Beltline used by churches. How about we keep the churches and develop the parking lots??

CalgaryAlex · #**234** Posted **Aug 20, 2015, 4:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusili

Dammit. Fair point. I hate the surface parking lots in Beltline used by churches. How about we keep the churches and develop the parking lots??

I'd say there could be underground parking with development on top, but just imagine the number of ripped up fenders and side mirrors littering the ground after the boatloads of seniors start driving their Lincolns into an underground parkade Sunday morning...

MasterG · #**235** Posted **Aug 20, 2015, 8:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

I'd say there could be underground parking with development on top, but just imagine the number of ripped up fenders and side mirrors littering the ground after the boatloads of seniors start driving their Lincolns into an underground parkade Sunday morning...

fusili · #**236** Posted **Aug 20, 2015, 8:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

I'd say there could be underground parking with development on top, but just imagine the number of ripped up fenders and side mirrors littering the ground after the boatloads of seniors start driving their Lincolns into an underground parkade Sunday morning...

I do think we need to foster more creative ways for churches to partner with developers to develop these lots while preserving the parking for the church. Our bylaw however is completely hostile to such arrangements.

RyLucky · #**237** Posted **Aug 21, 2015, 1:55 AM**

While we are on the topic, what ever happened to the the Kensington Hillhurst Church redevelopment? I thought they were going to build social housing on their laneway or something...

kw5150 · #**238** Posted **Aug 21, 2015, 4:31 PM**

haha!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

I'd say there could be underground parking with development on top, but just imagine the number of ripped up fenders and side mirrors littering the ground after the boatloads of seniors start driving their Lincolns into an underground parkade Sunday morning...

kw5150 · #**239** Posted **Aug 21, 2015, 4:39 PM**

From a few pages back.......

Im loving the hybrid approach to the green line through the city centre:

Elevated, bridge, tunnel, on grade. I prefer LRT that have a good mix of all 4 types.

ClaytonA · #**240** Posted **Aug 22, 2015, 2:42 AM**

Good criticisms Malcolm and ByBye, I didn't realize the TTC streetcars operated in a variety of fashions. Why would the other seperated ROW line I think it's Harbourfront? have a lower on-time performance?

Fall presentations, lunch/learn, and community workshops are up on the project website for the SE portion; http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TI/Pages/Transit-projects/Green-line/upcomingevents.aspx

South Hill Community Workshop Sep 1, 2015 6:30 PM - Sep 15, 2015 9:00 PM Glenmore Inn

Highfield Station Workshop Sep 2, 2015 | 1:00 PM - 3:30 PM Blackfoot Inn

Lunch & Learn in Quarry Park Sep 3, 2015 | 11:30 AM - 1:30 PM Cardel Theatre

Station Workshop - south of Douglas Glen Sep 9, 2015 | 6:30 PM - 9:00 PM Auburn Heights Retirement Residence | 21 Auburn Bay Street S.E.

and so on...check the website, hopefully some people on here can attend.