The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Really? I have never heard a resident of the City of Vancouver express this opinion.

Sorry, I meant to say Metro Vancouver. I'll edit it.

[Nouvellecosse]

Wow, I'm surprised to hear that considering that all the rapid transit lines are basically direct connections between downtown and the suburbs. Suburbanites are funny folks.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Wow, I'm surprised to hear that considering that all the rapid transit lines are basically direct connections between downtown and the suburbs. Suburbanites are funny folks.

The common argument is that Vancouver has really good bus service, while the suburbs don't. So why should Vancouver get even better transit while the suburbs stays the same? Of course ignoring the massive differences in density and existing ridership.

[1overcosc]

To me, the logical solution is to build more rapid transit in Vancouver, and improve bus service in the suburbs.

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Bingo. Especially things like bus lanes and traffic signal pre-emption which would significantly improve trip times, likely as much or more than extending rapid transit lines considering most people in low density areas have to use feeder services to access a station anyway.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

The common argument is that Vancouver has really good bus service, while the suburbs don't. So why should Vancouver get even better transit while the suburbs stays the same? Of course ignoring the massive differences in density and existing ridership.

And ignoring that improvements in rapid transit in Vancouver also benefits suburbanites coming into the city, while local bus service in the suburbs only benefits suburbanites.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

And ignoring that improvements in rapid transit in Vancouver also benefits suburbanites coming into the city, while local bus service in the suburbs only benefits suburbanites.

Local bus service in the suburbs benefits central-city residents too:

1) Makes it easier for them to get to jobs, go to medical appointments, visit relatives/friends, shop at retail destinations, etc. that are located in the suburbs
2) Reduces car traffic into the core, allowing for reduced parking, more space for pedestrians, etc.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Nothing is happening with it right now. Since the referendum failed there's no funding for it (estimated cost would be $3 billion), and even then it was only envisioned to go halfway there because of this cost. I agree that it's a no-brainer, but it's much more controversial here than you would think. It's funny because people here are saying the SkyTrain is too suburban focused, but in Metro Vancouver a lot of people complain that Vancouver gets too much and that SkyTrain should be extended further out into the suburbs than along Broadway to UBC for example.

There was a small study done to compare different potential technologies and alignments through potential ridership, speed and things like that. It says that by 2041, ridership would be 320,000 people a day–that would add a lot to the question being discussed above! Here's a link to a quick infographic if anyone's curious: http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document.../ubc_rapid_transit_study_infographic.pdf

3 billion? Wow. I thought the price would be more comparable to the cost of Canada Line. The amount of tunneling would be about the same wouldn't it? I've never been to Vancouver, but it doesn't seem like an elevated guide-way is possible along broadway so tunneling would be the only option (For RRT). Have they mentioned reasons for the hefty price tag?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Local bus service in the suburbs benefits central-city residents too:

1) Makes it easier for them to get to jobs, go to medical appointments, visit relatives/friends, shop at retail destinations, etc. that are located in the suburbs
2) Reduces car traffic into the core, allowing for reduced parking, more space for pedestrians, etc.

Aren't the main commercial/retail hubs in the suburbs connected to rapid transit? Wouldn't a city resident be able to access most "destinations" on skytrain without local bus assistance? And let's face it. It's things like jobs/school and shopping that make up the vast majority of transit trips. Visiting suburban relatives is a tiny drop in the bucket.

Besides, I was advocating for better local suburban bus service. It was the notion that there should be more suburban Skytrain service instead of more central city skytrain service that i was condemning.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

3 billion? Wow. I thought the price would be more comparable to the cost of Canada Line. The amount of tunneling would be about the same wouldn't it? I've never been to Vancouver, but it doesn't seem like an elevated guide-way is possible along broadway so tunneling would be the only option (For RRT). Have they mentioned reasons for the hefty price tag?

A good portion of the Canada Line is elevated, and a smaller portion is bored. The majority of it was built cut-and-cover, which is much cheaper than boring. The Broadway subway is planned to be dug exclusively through boring, because Broadway is a much busier street than Cambie and you couldn't really shut down any part of it like you could with Cambie, which even then was very controversial.

********************

Yes, I also agree that building lines in the city helps everyone. Broadway and UBC are the second and third largest employment centres in Vancouver and 50% of people travelling along the corridor today come from outside the City of Vancouver. The referendum that was voted against was also heavily suburban focused: 5km of new rapid transit in Vancouver along Broadway and 28km of light rail in Surrey. Bus service improvement was also about 40% city and 60% suburbs. The Broadway line has being continually pushed back in favour of suburban expansion (the Coquitlam extension right now, and now Surrey's whining that it's "their turn") and with the defeat of the referendum, it doesn't look like that trend will be bucked any time soon.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Besides, I was advocating for better local suburban bus service. It was the notion that there should be more suburban Skytrain service instead of more central city skytrain service that i was condemning.

Ah, got it. With this, fully agreed.

[GreaterMontréal]

and ridership of the 6 major cities in general..

for Montréal it's for the STM + AMT. the bus ridership in Laval and Longueuil are not accounted for.

Laval -
20M+ /y
55k/day
Longueuil -
35M+ /y
133k/day (2013)

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

The common argument is that Vancouver has really good bus service, while the suburbs don't. So why should Vancouver get even better transit while the suburbs stays the same? Of course ignoring the massive differences in density and existing ridership.

Density is an excuse. It is not low density, but lack of service that is the reason for lower ridership in the suburbs.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Density is an excuse. It is not low density, but lack of service that is the reason for lower ridership in the suburbs.

Service obviously plays a role, but considering that Vancouver's density is 5,249 people/km2 and Surrey's is 1,600 people/km2 it's pretty clear why the suburbs can't have the same service. And again I must mention, the referendum focused predominantly on the suburbs. It failed.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Density is an excuse. It is not low density, but lack of service that is the reason for lower ridership in the suburbs.

Density obviously matters. Density can support higher ridership just because more people live along the route (and fewer parking spaces).

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Service obviously plays a role, but considering that Vancouver's density is 5,249 people/km2 and Surrey's is 1,600 people/km2 it's pretty clear why the suburbs can't have the same service. And again I must mention, the referendum focused predominantly on the suburbs. It failed.

You're talking to a hardcore Scarborough forumer (At least he used to live in Scarborough). He shares the mentality of many in the burbs that they get short changed on transit when if you take into account the lower density they actually have better transit then those in the core. He'll probably tell you the Scarborough Subway extension was a need not want and more or as pressing as the DRL which it is not. The DRL should be the only Subway U/C right now in Toronto and it's still just an item on the TTC's wishlist. Thanks to the vote pandering by all last fall Scarbourough will get 4 new subway stops while then central city becomes more congested on it's only north south subway line.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

You're talking to a hardcore Scarborough forumer (At least he used to live in Scarborough). He shares the mentality of many in the burbs that they get short changed on transit when if you take into account the lower density they actually have better transit then those in the core.

Wrong. Growing up in Scarborough I have seen that you can have frequent, attractive, and busy transit routes in the suburbs. Density is often used as an excuse for poor transit.

Look at this street in suburban Vancouver. Service off peak is every 30 - 60 minutes, and service ends early.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.133857,-1...8.35168%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


A similar and even less dense and busy street in suburban Toronto. This street gets service approximately every 12 minutes 7 days a week. Service operates until 1:00am.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7884656,-...3.17975%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Density is important. But it is not always the main factor in building attractive transit.

[nname]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Look at this street in suburban Vancouver. Service off peak is every 30 - 60 minutes, and service ends early.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.133857,-1...8.35168%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

3 Bus routes serving at that location:

319 is a frequent service, runs every 7-8min mid-day, 10min evening, 20-30min late night. Last bus to go through that location is at approx 2:20am.

301 is a regional express service, runs every 30min mid-day, 30-60min at night, with last bus at approx. 10:15pm.

C75 is a local community shuttle service, runs every 30min mid-day, 30min in evenings, with last bus at approx 9:25pm.

The service on that particular street is better than the one for Toronto that you compared to.

[spaceprobe]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

I wonder why Vancouver does so much worse compared to Calgary. The Skytrain always seems to be at capacity. What does Vancouver need to do to get their numbers up?

You probably also have to account for all short rides generated between downtown stations in Calgary (seems rare for people in downtown vancouver to ride 1 or 2 stops, while it is very common in Calgary as it is basically like a large local bus service downtown). Also, it is free to ride between downtown stations in Calgary, which likely adds a significant number.

As some other also stated, most bus lines in Calgary feed into the C-train in order to get you where you want to go (ie work). This isn't the case in Metro Vancouver where more often than not, the skytrain doesn't actually go to where people need to go as destinations and jobs spread in a geographic pattern where it would not make any sense to use the Skytrain.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by nname

3 Bus routes serving at that location:

319 is a frequent service, runs every 7-8min mid-day, 10min evening, 20-30min late night. Last bus to go through that location is at approx 2:20am.

301 is a regional express service, runs every 30min mid-day, 30-60min at night, with last bus at approx. 10:15pm.

C75 is a local community shuttle service, runs every 30min mid-day, 30min in evenings, with last bus at approx 9:25pm.

The service on that particular street is better than the one for Toronto that you compared to.

My mistake. I was looking at the wrong schedule.

[SkahHigh]

The STM started testing the MPM-10 during non-peak hours. Hopefully this means they'll be entering service in december.


From STM Fb page