The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by FLL

I'm in my late 30's - community activist and cheerleader who admittedly feels deflated about our city. I'm discouraged. It's not just development - SJ was a distinct community spirit up until the late 80's - thousands attended Loyalist Days with huge parades, festival by the sea was a huge event , participaction events, bus pulls up king street, street dances, battles of the bands. Just feels different sorry. As an event organizer it's hard to inspire people to get involved and participate.

Please try not to be discouraged. The power of positive thinking is essential, and if you are a community organizer and activist, then Saint John depends on you. Sometimes a single person can make all the difference.

Here in Moncton, the difference maker was the late Ian Fowler. He was the person responsible for the Magnetic Hill Concert Site taking off and landing the big name acts. He was also responsible in large part for the Moncton Stadium, the IAAF Junior World Championships and the first CFL game. He devoted himself to the community right down to coaching minor basketball and being involved in all sorts of neighbourhood celebrations.

Don't give up on Saint John. There's a lot to like about what is happening in the uptown area. The recent Bustin's announcement seems to be development related and due to a new Historica project. If so, this is a good news scenario.

Saint John is just following a different development trajectory than Moncton. SJ will continue to do well in it's own right, especially if the energy megaprojects happen.

[UptownJeff]

I can certainly relate to these comments! I moved here in 2008 with work (my choice) after coming here to visit inlaws for the 15 years prior. My initial response to Saint John on my first visit @1994 was "who in their right mind would want to live here?!" Well, each year we would return and I would see noticeable improvements - slow but sure! Sometimes you need to be away to appreciate just what we have here. Now, I get it - the recent store closing announcements and delays on virtually every development promise are very demoralizing but from personal experience, the grass is always greener somewhere else....it isn't!

I know we all try to justify things and why is it better in Moncton etc etc.... Moncton, in my opinion, is a VERY different place than Saint John - always was and always will be. We are an industrialized port city and likely will be for the forseeable future. The fact that we have also experienced the single biggest economic meltdown since the Great Depression cannot be ignored nor can the impact of this on the promised and hoped for developments be ignored.

It is my belief that as we continue to dig ourselves out of this things will start to happen - I truly believe this. We live right in the heart of Uptown and have seen many many good things happen in recent years. Is it slow? Is it painful? You bet it is! Keep the hope alive!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by FLL

I'm in my late 30's - community activist and cheerleader who admittedly feels deflated about our city. I'm discouraged. It's not just development - SJ was a distinct community spirit up until the late 80's - thousands attended Loyalist Days with huge parades, festival by the sea was a huge event , participaction events, bus pulls up king street, street dances, battles of the bands. Just feels different sorry. As an event organizer it's hard to inspire people to get involved and participate.

This could be a combination of two things:
1)Nostalgia. You cite being in your late 30s and then refer to things in the late 80s as being the good times. Perhaps everything seemed awesome because you were a child/younger. I know going to the Museum and Flames games when I was 10 years old was a blast and felt like seriously big city stuff.

2)General societal trends. More people drive now than they did in the 80s, and cities and communities have been shaped more by car culture. As such, it's harder to keep local shops open as people can just drive further distances to shops they prefer. Also, things like the internet and broad choices in television either dissuade people from heading outside or make local festivals and community events just seem smaller by comparison. I've heard of people not wanting to go to music festivals or parades simply because they can watch better ones online. Shrug.

Saint John, to my knowledge, still has participation and community events; they're just not the same ones we used to have. Just because we lose something like Festival by the Sea doesn't mean we don't gain something like the Fundy Fringe Festival (which actually starts tomorrow).

We have events such as all of the Idol-based events on the boardwalk to replace this battle of the bands, and bus pulls are something that i've personally only seen in rural areas.

[Ottawa]

Saint John has had some disappointments that have been instigated or accentuated by the economic depression that's been going on since 2008.

Also, there is the perception (I believe) in Quebec and places west, that the maritimes are a good place to vacation but they really don't think much about the east coast beyond that, unless they need to find some people with good work ethics. That is a significant weak spot in the Canadian mindset.

The maritime provinces tend to not take part as much in the prosperity of the rest of Canada. And you tend to take the brunt of the blow when the economy falters. I don't think it's right, but it is the time proven result.

That's one reason why the pipeline is so important. It brings Saint John and the maritimes generally a whole lot closer to the integrated economic center of Canada, and it will make Saint John and NB more of an integral part of the Canadian economy. It will open up Europe to Canadian oil. It will give them an alternative to Russia's bullying marketing methods. Maybe it won't go there, but they are obviously planning on selling into new markets. It really increases the reliability in transporting oil across thousands of miles previously only accomplished by expensive and dangerous lower reliability methods.

Canada has been suffering a lot in general economically. I live in Ottawa which is so reliant on government, it would dry up and blow away if the federal government didn't pour tons of cash into it. The only ones that succeed in a town like this are government employees, and those that sevice the government and it's employees. Even the high tech sector here got started, and still relies significanty on government business.

Ontario has the highest debt load of any non-sovereign state in the WORLD! On the surface, it looks OK still, but it has a $315B dollar provincial debt to pay, and it can't print money. So it's starting to nickel and dime everybody while the debt is continuing to skyrocket. The pigs at the trough haven't realized that the money isn't coming in the way it used to, although it never did come in THAT fast.

Unfortunately, the last big industrial project that Saint John was supposed to get fell smack dab on the 2008 financial meltdown. The decision to not build Eider Rock spelt the end of a whole lot of investments in a whole lot of places. That's how important those big investments are. It is important to note that the permitting process was still pursued for Eider Rock in case economic conditions improved. Who knows?

LNG was supposed to be a big business when the natural gas demand in North America was exceeding supply. That turned around when the US discovered fracking, and now Repsol/Irving wants to export from the LNG terminal. Who foresaw that coming that quick? But that could turn around again if the NG suppliers want to take the price down to where fracking isn't feasible anymore.

The investments in oil and gas are huge, so the payback on successful projects needs to be huge to cover the bad ones, and keep some money in the bank for future investments. Unfortunately, the new Alberta government is seeing fit to tax oil supplies at a higher rate, so, as a result, the world oil price will have to go that much higher to make the oilsands profitable again.

It's the big money making industries that need to work in order to give us the money to invest in the other projects that seem to make life more enjoyable.

To offer a little more perspective, there have been lots of businesses going under here in Ottawa as well. Target didn't leave the country because the streets were paved with gold. I personally think they came in way underfunded. The restaurant business everywhere is notorious for business failure. It is no problem finding used restaurant equipment if you are thinking about opening a restaurant - anywhere. There are a lot of other retail closures here as well lately.

Here is a list of stores closing in the US in 2015(only listing closings >100 that are scheduled):

700 McDonald's
400 Office Depot / Office Max (by 2016)
359 Dots
338 Wet Seal
330 Family Dollar
300 Deb Shops
265 Body Central / Body Shop
250 Office Depot (2015)
225 Staples (through 2015)
223 Barnes & Noble (through 2023)
200 Anna's Linens
200 Children’s Place (through 2017)
200 Walgreens (by 2017)
180 Abercrombie & Fitch (by 2015)
175 Aeropostale (“over the next several years”)
172 Simply Fashion
170 Jones Group (by mid-2014 )
150 American Eagle Outfitters (through 2017)
140 Gap / Gap Kids (2015)
133 Target, Canada (bankruptcy)
127 Jones New York Outlet
​120 Chico’s (through 2017)
120 Izod
100 Pier One (through 2017)

And the list goes on.... That doesn't happen when the economy is humming along at a 5% unemployment rate.

Now, the world oil prices are claiming jobs in Alberta and other oil dependent places. The world is still in a terrible financial position because of major money makers like the oil industry being in turmoil, cheap Chinese manufactured goods literally taking jobs directly from higher waged countries, and a real US unemployment rate in double digits. There are 94M Americans not working. And that number is continuing to grow.

You are lucky to be in an internet based business where you can work from wherever you want. That is the ideal business model if you can make it work. You can live wherever you want, as long as your business can pay the cost of living in that area. You have options available, but you don't have to move to improve your own financial situation if you are making money in your online business. There are pros and cons for every place.

[kwajo]

I feel like writing a huge reply to all of this, but I haven't the time right now. I just wanted to point out that even though there are a few stores closing (which always seems to make the news), there are also a number of stores and boutiques opening, which is typical of most cities. I wish every news piece about a closure also mentioned what is opening, because sometimes it is just shifting demographics or owners retiring, etc.. Take Birks for example, it is closing, but yet we just had a new Löle store open across the street. To me that signals a shift in demographics Uptown from older buyers looking for silverware to younger residents looking for activewear. Seems like a positive story to me.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kwajo

I feel like writing a huge reply to all of this, but I haven't the time right now. I just wanted to point out that even though there are a few stores closing (which always seems to make the news), there are also a number of stores and boutiques opening, which is typical of most cities. I wish every news piece about a closure also mentioned what is opening, because sometimes it is just shifting demographics or owners retiring, etc.. Take Birks for example, it is closing, but yet we just had a new Löle store open across the street. To me that signals a shift in demographics Uptown from older buyers looking for silverware to younger residents looking for activewear. Seems like a positive story to me.

Remember when Downey Ford closed on Crown Street? All everyone seems to remember is the Police HQ not going there despite the fact that a number of new businesses (Enterprise, collision centre) have opened up in the old space. It looks much better and is more business in the core. The media in NB and SJ are a joke and generally just give the people negative stories to talk about rather than reporting on actual news. It'll change as the older generation moves away (or, ahem, passes away) as that is the only generation that really still holds on to the Newspaper/News at 6 format of receiving their news.

Honestly, CHSJ news right now: Detour angering residents, arrest, Canada-wide warrant, Fire, Fire, Sports, City parking, missing snake, Premier on Moncton
CBC: Moncton tender for pedestrian project, gun shot in Moncton, Saint John banning train whistles, Quispamsis fireworks complaints, missing snake, Snooty Fox reopening (after failed health inspection), NBSouthern derailment.

[Helladog]

The "sad news" story about Saint John isn't new, the city hasn't grown since the 70's. That said, it isn't all gloom and doom, Saint John has a lot to offer, which is why I'll probably end up retiring here.

Since I was a kid, I watched in anticipation to see the city get bigger, which it never did. In fact, the growth Moncton received is a lot of what I always wanted to see in the city.

It's okay to speak negatively about Saint John; there is a tendency here on this thread to shut down anyone who criticizes the city. I believe a proper dialogue about what is wrong with SJ is important to fixing the problems it has. But solutions to the problems, need to follow.

The proposed pipeline may be positive for the city, but prosperity doesn't end here. We need to see more startups and innovation, more leaders with positive vision. Once any pipeline is built, things will just go back to normal.

For all that's not perfect about Saint John, I do like the people, the buildings, the culture, and the sea. On a day like this, the cooler air is definitely a plus. If one is lucky enough to have a job that works for them, and still likes the city, the closure of a few stores shouldn't be a reason to leave...more and more people are shopping online, so expect the situation to continue.

On a separate note...I think this city is missing something in the way of venues for families. I think Rockwood Park should install waterslides like it used to have, and maybe mini golf. The underfunded Cherry Brook Zoo should be relocated into the park, closer to the people. As it is, it's just a large under utilized space consisting of a few gravel beaches.

[swish]

Not sure why people want to get so down when discussing SJ. I am aware the city has more than its share of issues and challenges but every city in the region has challenges. Moncton and Halifax are not paved in gold both places have huge debtloads and other issues. I do think it is important to discuss things that worry people but I believe much of the concern about certain stores closing is misguided. The uptown furniture store closure though a bit sad is not a tragic event. Historica wanted the building and they have it. I watched the interview with the owner of the store on Live AT 5 (i still call it that) and the owner did not sell due to a bad economy etc he just wanted to retire and did not really want to reopen in a new location. Charlottetown lost a cherished downtown clothing retailer a few years ago that had been in business for over 50 years and it closed because the family wanted to retire nothing tragic about it. Saint John has a number of great assets and the people are one the best assets which is why I love the place.

[Freddypop]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Please try not to be discouraged. The power of positive thinking is essential, and if you are a community organizer and activist, then Saint John depends on you. Sometimes a single person can make all the difference.

Here in Moncton, the difference maker was the late Ian Fowler. He was the person responsible for the Magnetic Hill Concert Site taking off and landing the big name acts. He was also responsible in large part for the Moncton Stadium, the IAAF Junior World Championships and the first CFL game. He devoted himself to the community right down to coaching minor basketball and being involved in all sorts of neighbourhood celebrations.

Don't give up on Saint John. There's a lot to like about what is happening in the uptown area. The recent Bustin's announcement seems to be development related and due to a new Historica project. If so, this is a good news scenario.

Saint John is just following a different development trajectory than Moncton. SJ will continue to do well in it's own right, especially if the energy megaprojects happen.

I echo MonctonRad's comments. SJ has a lot to be proud of and I am sure will once again return to it's former glory as a provincial economic powerhouse

[thefishingnut]

Any city is what you make of it. I lived 10 years in Toronto, enjoyed it generally, hated that I would spend hours and hours on summer weekends getting out and back to enjoy some nature. All I could afford was a 600 sq foot bungalow in East York on a 25' lot with a huge apartment building looking into my postage stamp back yard, because I didn't want to spend a good part of my life commuting. Working for companies where I was just a pawn in a huge sea of workers. Now I own a business locally, live on the K river within biking distance of my office. 4 fawns running around in the yard this morning. Woke up recently to the crows bothering the Bald Eagle perched in a tree in the yard. Make a few casts for Stripers the odd nice evening just to watch the sunset. Not everyones taste, but suites me fine. Not many places I could do it for a price less than an average Toronto condo where the only sounds of nature would be the neighbors farting.

I think with some of the issues here arise opportunities. Don't wait for good paying jobs, build a business and blow out some of the badly run ones. Buy and develop some rental units.

Will the kids leave? Probably. And other peoples kids move here. We're a migratory society now, people just don't stay put like they used to, no matter where they grew up. Good thing my parents didn't follow their kids (from Ontario), or they'd be splitting their time between NB, Alberta, and BC.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Honestly, CHSJ news right now: Detour angering residents, arrest, Canada-wide warrant, Fire, Fire, Sports, City parking, missing snake, Premier on Moncton
CBC: Moncton tender for pedestrian project, gun shot in Moncton, Saint John banning train whistles, Quispamsis fireworks complaints, missing snake, Snooty Fox reopening (after failed health inspection), NBSouthern derailment.

That's about the state of TV news everywhere as far as I can tell. They are just time fillers between commercials more than anything else.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

Don't wait for good paying jobs, build a business and blow out some of the badly run ones. Buy and develop some rental units.

Or build an online business. You're not dependent upon the local economy. You can work from anywhere. And it generally doesn't need a ton of investment. You do need some sort of a specialty item I believe to make it work really well, but it is doable. It takes time to develop a clientele, but it really doesn't matter if you're in Saint John or Flin Flon.

[BeautifulNB]

I have also been a resident of the Saint John area since I was born (40 Years). I am know raising my 3 kids here and could not ask for a better place to do so. I think great things are in store for SJ!!! I don't have the time of day for individuals that complain about the city. They need to ask themselves what they are doing to make it better. Go to an uptown restaurant, go to the Imperial when a show is playing, take part in the Gallery Hop tomorrow night, etc. Enjoy what the city has to offer.

[Ire Narissis]

People getting riled up about the route 102 detour just makes me roll my eyes.

Yes, it's 15-20 minutes of extra driving. Yes, it's highly inconvenient.

What would be even more inconvenient would be if repairs were not carried out in order to spare residents six weeks of inconvenience, and that decaying old overpass were to collapse one day. That would take longer than six weeks to repair.

It reminds me of a period last year when our office was having its roof resurfaced and a lot of my co-workers complained about the tar smell. All I could think was "Seriously? Would you rather have a week of tar smell, or permanent pay cuts as the company diverts money to repair water damage?"

Sometimes, a period of inconvenience is necessary to improve things on an ongoing basis.

[RR Drummer]

Originally Posted by BeautifulNB

I have also been a resident of the Saint John area since I was born (40 Years). I am know raising my 3 kids here and could not ask for a better place to do so. I think great things are in store for SJ!!! I don't have the time of day for individuals that complain about the city. They need to ask themselves what they are doing to make it better. Go to an uptown restaurant, go to the Imperial when a show is playing, take part in the Gallery Hop tomorrow night, etc. Enjoy what the city has to offer.

Well said, I was going to add my two cents worth but you read my mind. 100% correct.

[FLL]

I found this already posted on another board (I didn't copy from TJ)
Is this the Irving announcement for refinery shutdown or is this actually for Charlotte County??? Surely the newspaper didn't conflate the shutdown with Charlotte County speech - people in St Stephen have their hopes up

Thousands of jobs on way, says premier
New Brunswick Telegraph-Journal
Wed Aug 19 2015
Page: A1
Section: Main
Byline: Derwin Gowan

ST. STEPHEN • Southwest New Brunswick should prepare for a good announcement on jobs, possibly within 48 hours, Premier Brian Gallant said on Tuesday in St. Stephen.
He could not say what will be announced or who will announce it, but it might be hard to find a vacant hotel room in Charlotte County, he said in a speech at a suppertime reception hosted by the St. Stephen Area Chamber of Commerce in the Garcelon Civic Center.
“It’s not from us so I can’t do it tonight, if you’re wondering, and media are probably going to try to push me to say. I won’t be able to, but this will create thousands of jobs and I will venture to say that you will have a hard time finding a hotel room that will be empty in the southwest of New Brunswick over the next few months because of this project,” the premier said in his speech.
“These are things that are going to help stimulate the economy, it’s going to create jobs and it’s going to set ourselves up for long-term economic growth. I know with what I just said now that everybody is going to spend the rest of my speech thinking about what the announcement is. If it makes you feel better, it’s going to come in about the next 48 hours, I believe, so you won’t have to wait too long to find out what this investment is, but it’s going to be a significant amount. It’s certainly going to help our economy, especially the economy here in the southwest.”
Speaking to a reporter afterwards, he was as good as his word that he would say no more about the impending announcement, repeating that “the project that will be announced will, I believe, be a fantastic catalyst for job creation and economic growth.”
“You will see many, many people come to the southwest to be able to fill these jobs and to be able to do the work that will be announced. We are very excited at the prospects of what this will do for the economy of Charlotte County and what it will do for the provincial economy as well.”
And filling all hotel rooms?
“Let’s say it’s an informal prediction that all the hotels will be very busy with this investment,” the premier replied.
To the suggestion that this sounds like a big construction project, he laughed and replied,“Well, you may be right, you may be right,” then moved on.
He dropped the heavy hint about a major announcement while talking about investment in Port Saint John, the possible conversion of the liquefied natural gas terminal to export product, the Energy East pipeline, mining, as well as “many of these energy projects that’s going to start and be announced actually as early as this week.”
People will apparently have to wait some hours for more details.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by FLL

Is this the Irving announcement for refinery shutdown or is this actually for Charlotte County??? Surely the newspaper didn't conflate the shutdown with Charlotte County speech - people in St Stephen have their hopes up

They absolutely did conflate it with CC. I'll be posting my reaction on the Refinery Turnaround once I digest it a bit.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

They absolutely did conflate it with CC.

Which is a shame, I was kinda confused too.

This is a good news announcement but the "thousands of jobs" is only temporary, and for only a couple of months. I don't know why Brian Gallant is so excited about this. Is he that desperate for good news that he can trumpet????? It's not like he had anything to do with all this........

[magee_b]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Which is a shame, I was kinda confused too.

This is a good news announcement but the "thousands of jobs" is only temporary, and for only a couple of months. I don't know why Brian Gallant is so excited about this. Is he that desperate for good news that he can trumpet????? It's not like he had anything to do with all this........

All the politicians are swarming to get some camera time on this one... MP Rodney Weston decided to show his face at the event too, so i'm sure we'll see another billboard pop up around town about it

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by magee_b

All the politicians are swarming to get some camera time on this one... MP Rodney Weston decided to show his face at the event too, so i'm sure we'll see another billboard pop up around town about it

Given that we're into the writ period of the campaign he can't put up any more billboards. He can put up signs, but not billboards.

MonctonRad pretty much stated some of my concerns on this. Is it 2,700 jobs? Yes. Of them, 2,400 are for New Brunswickers, and they all end by the middle of November. It's great to have a little shot in the arm, but this isn't the mega-project that a lot of people are running around saying it is (Gallant included). It helps Irving's long-term viability in the refinery but doesn't do a whole lot for SJ in the long-term. It helps quarterly, for sure; then we'll be back to status quo come next year.

On the plus side, there was no government funding involved in this, so it's all Irving money for Irving project, which is a win given NB's history of funding these sorts of economic projects.