PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Jonboy1983]

^^^

Holy 🞵🞵🞵🞵!!! JEEEZ!!! Talk about a GAME CHANGER!! A CVS PHARMACY!!

WOOHOO

[gg1]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I would guess no at this point. The administrative and legal hassle of a full merger would be large, and these service deals seem adequate to capture the main benefits. And I suspect for civic pride reasons, plus maybe wanting a more direct say in government, a lot of people in Wilkinsburg would resist.

I suspect you are right, but if Wilkinsburg could at least dismantle its high school, could that provide some tax relief to residents? If Wilkinsburg can get more inline with other areas on property tax, I feel it would grow in a positive direction, not to mention the added benefit of going to a much better school district.

[Evergrey]

lol

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/8899795-74/mcknight-road-ross#axzz3iz8VDpoJ

Ross planners rethink McKnight Road as high-end destination



By Katelyn Ferral
Saturday, Aug. 15, 2015, 9:00 p.m.
Updated 13 hours ago

Ross officials are aiming to raise the bar for retail and restaurants on McKnight Road.

The congested corridor is too often only a vehicle for shoppers to reach the Ross Park Mall, not a shopping and eating destination of its own, officials say. In October, Ross Township Business and Economic Development Corp., or RED, is planning a series of meetings to discuss how to attract more affluent boutique retail on par with high-end retail at the mall.

“McKnight Road has six lanes of cars riding up and down it; we should be doing better business-wise,” said David E. Martin, president of RED. Martin was elected in May to lead the group, which promotes local businesses and tries to attract new ones.

The mall brings people to the area, but a lack of commercial cohesion along McKnight carries them quickly out again, he said.

“When they come out (of the mall) ... I want them to drive to another business, and that's a struggle,” Martin said. “If I'm coming out of a mall that has Nordstrom's, I should have some option, like ... eating at Capital Grille, somewhat higher grade.”

...

[gg1]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

lol

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/8899795-74/mcknight-road-ross#axzz3iz8VDpoJ

I don't think they are going to be successful with this idea. You go to the mall or some shopping destination and you are going out to eat at an upscale restaurant? Then after a couple of glasses of wine you are going to deal with McKnight Road? 6 lanes of traffic and no way to turn around isn't exactly nice in any way. I dread driving on that road without the glass of wine. I just don't care for the car centric North Hills. You can't even walk from one store to the next if they are on McKnight Road or you might end up being a stain on the roadway or parking lot. Not a very friendly vibe with that type of design, but how could you change it now? Drop it down to two lanes in each direction with some green space? Good luck getting that crowd to be okay with that.

[Ditchdigger]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

^^^

Holy 🞵🞵🞵🞵!!! JEEEZ!!! Talk about a GAME CHANGER!! A CVS PHARMACY!!

WOOHOO

I knew that would create some excitement...

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by gg1

I suspect you are right, but if Wilkinsburg could at least dismantle its high school, could that provide some tax relief to residents? If Wilkinsburg can get more inline with other areas on property tax, I feel it would grow in a positive direction, not to mention the added benefit of going to a much better school district.

Hopefully! The general plan is a three step process. First they hope to get some ability to reduce taxes, including through abatement. Then they hope new investment and appreciation increase the tax base. Finally they hope to be able to cut rates a lot more. Note for step three to work, they really need another reassessment at some point.

Edit: By the way, I have already heard rumors about people looking to buy houses in Wilkinsburg as rental properties in anticipation of the school deal leading to a big bump in prices. That is not necessarily great in isolation, but if they fix them up then actually sell to new families, that could be great.

[Urbana]

Driving down Fifth Ave. today, I noticed there was a crane being set up in front of UMPC Presbyterian and there seems to be the beginnings of demolition of the blue and white portion of the building. As a reminder, this is what they have planned:



Source and a handful of other renderings.

It is a little disappointing to see such a prominent corner go unused. But then again, I would bet UPMC is saving it for something pretty huge down the line.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Urbana

Driving down Fifth Ave. today, I noticed there was a crane being set up in front of UMPC Presbyterian and there seems to be the beginnings of demolition of the blue and white portion of the building. As a reminder, this is what they have planned:



Source and a handful of other renderings.

It is a little disappointing to see such a prominent corner go unused. But then again, I would bet UPMC is saving it for something pretty huge down the line.

I think this is what we agreed was happening last time it was discussed.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by gg1

I don't think they are going to be successful with this idea. You go to the mall or some shopping destination and you are going out to eat at an upscale restaurant? Then after a couple of glasses of wine you are going to deal with McKnight Road? 6 lanes of traffic and no way to turn around isn't exactly nice in any way. I dread driving on that road without the glass of wine. I just don't care for the car centric North Hills. You can't even walk from one store to the next if they are on McKnight Road or you might end up being a stain on the roadway or parking lot. Not a very friendly vibe with that type of design, but how could you change it now? Drop it down to two lanes in each direction with some green space? Good luck getting that crowd to be okay with that.

Tell that to Upper Marion Township. Ross Twp just has 6 lanes of US 19. Upper Marion has the US 202 freeway terminus, the Schuylkill Expressway terminus, the US 422 terminus, and oh yeah the PA Turnpike interchange. Yet, people seem to go there all the time, both locals and out-of-the-area visitors.

So I think adding more high-end destination uses to that part of 19 is a good idea. It's not as large as King of Prussia, but it is just as high end and gaining in population. SEPTA is extending its Norristown Speed Line to the mall. Perhaps transit planners could plan out a rail transport corridor for the North Hills. I think the LRT should be extended to Cranberry along the busy US 19 corridor all the way to Cranberry.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

lol

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/8899795-74/mcknight-road-ross#axzz3iz8VDpoJ

Heh. Here's the thing: they are in their CARS. Once that happens, it doesn't matter whether they drive half a mile or 5 miles to the next place. Not a huge deal for it to be close. Plus, a lot of them will be heading north into McCandless and Pine anyway. I get what they're saying, there's an aspect of Ross Park that's a destination from a wide area draw, so while those people are there from far away, why not have some additional draws. It doesn't happen with the wave of a magic wand though.

The pedestrian thing is interesting but also harder there than some other places. My office is now in the Wexford Flats area on 19. Some of you may know that a couple years ago this section was renovated with sidewalks on both sides. Even I went "Yeah, right, who is going to walk in Wexford," but through the spring and summer that I've been working there I've been pretty surprised at the sidewalk use. Not constant but I see all different kinds of people on it every day. And I can walk from the office to a number of things useful to me. That said, the area is, well, pretty flat. McKnight is NOT flat, and it'll be much harder to get much walking going on. For the bus riders, sure, they have no choice and it would help. But it isn't going to stimulate much other use. It's not like people are going walk between Ross Park and other places! (Although, I guess they could and a few would. I saw a guy yesterday walking up a similar hill to the Walmart behind Northern Lights shopping center. Pushing a stroller. This might have been out of necessity though. I've seen people attempting to walk up to Ross Park from McKnight before.)

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

lol

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/8899795-74/mcknight-road-ross#axzz3iz8VDpoJ

I always forget how close Ross actually is to the North Side where I live. It's just about the same distance away that East Liberty is but I go to the East End daily and Ross about once every three years. Psychologically, that short ride up McKnight road just seems like it's impossibly too far to go for any non-extraordinary reasons.

[DBR96A]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

Tell that to Upper Marion Township. Ross Twp just has 6 lanes of US 19. Upper Marion has the US 202 freeway terminus, the Schuylkill Expressway terminus, the US 422 terminus, and oh yeah the PA Turnpike interchange. Yet, people seem to go there all the time, both locals and out-of-the-area visitors.

So I think adding more high-end destination uses to that part of 19 is a good idea. It's not as large as King of Prussia, but it is just as high end and gaining in population. SEPTA is extending its Norristown Speed Line to the mall. Perhaps transit planners could plan out a rail transport corridor for the North Hills. I think the LRT should be extended to Cranberry along the busy US 19 corridor all the way to Cranberry.

I know most people here think suburban discussion is lame, but wherever there is a city, there will be suburbs too, so it's worth talking about suburban development sometimes, especially in this case, where one suburb is trying to adapt. I think Ross Township has the potential to become the King of Prussia/Tyson's Corner for Pittsburgh: initially developed as post-war suburbia, but maturing into something more urban. I can envision the T replacing the HOV lanes on the Parkway North and extending up McKnight Road with a terminus in McCandless, and a couple of stops near Ross Park Mall. I also remember reading about an upscale condo proposal not far from the mall, so maybe that'll be the catalyst for the urbanization of the area.

[BrianTH]

Random comment, but if we ever did do commuter rail to the North Hills, it would probably make the most sense to use the existing rail line up through Millvale/Etna/Glenshaw/Allison Park/Gibsonia/Valencia/Mars/Evans City/Zelienople, and faster DMUs.

[Don't Be That Guy]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Just a guess, but I think more and more parents are going to find it is difficult to find open spots in desirable private and charter schools, which may push more toward your second scenario. Obviously they could also leave for suburban school districts, but I feel like once you have parents comfortable living somewhere and the problem is arising just as their kids are hitting kindergarten age, more of them will be willing to give their local feeder a shot.

I think you're being optimistic about parent's willing to use the feeder schools. The reason why is nicely summed up by your frank, but correct observation that,

I also tend to think this works best from the early grades up. To talk bluntly, I think many white parents are a lot less afraid of a majority-black kindergarten than they are a majority-black high school.

White parents aren't using the feeder schools because they fear eventually ending up at Westinghouse or Milliorns. It's a positive feedback loop that leads to declining enrollment across PPS because not enough charter programs are being offered to meet the needs and wants of middle class (regardless of race) families in the city.

It would work if families in East Liberty, Stanton Heights, Lawrenceville Highland Park, etc. sent their kids to the neighborhood school, but very few parents want their kid to be the pioneer.

This is going to be the issue determining whether or not the millennials moving into the city end up staying in the city. And PPS doesn't seem to be doing anything to address it.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

White parents aren't using the feeder schools because they fear eventually ending up at Westinghouse or Milliorns. It's a positive feedback loop that leads to declining enrollment across PPS because not enough charter programs are being offered to meet the needs and wants of middle class (regardless of race) families in the city. It would work if families in East Liberty, Stanton Heights, Lawrenceville Highland Park, etc. sent their kids to the neighborhood school, but very few parents want their kid to be the pioneer

So obviously lots of non-black parents do send their kids to feeder schools that are majority-black within the Allderdice feeder pattern (these schools end up having a substantial minority non-black)--they are not ALL trying to get into Colfax or Greenfield. And I believe in fact Arsenal, Sunnyside, and Woolslair, plus Montessori and Dilworth, fit the same pattern. Of course there are lots of lower-grade schools outside of the East End which are majority non-black but have a significant percentage of black students, or again fit the majority-black but with a substantial non-black minority pattern.

Westinghouse and Milliones do not fit this pattern, of course, but that leads me to . . .

And PPS doesn't seem to be doing anything to address it.

From the outside looking in, it seems to me PPS has tried to address this situation by aggressively expanding the Allderdice pattern and also locating two new magnet 6-12 schools, Obama and SciTech, in the East End. That has probably locked Westinghouse and Milliones into their current pattern, but I am not sure what would have been a better plan.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I always forget how close Ross actually is to the North Side where I live. It's just about the same distance away that East Liberty is but I go to the East End daily and Ross about once every three years. Psychologically, that short ride up McKnight road just seems like it's impossibly too far to go for any non-extraordinary reasons.

Interesting.

As a fellow Northsider I would say I go to each of those places equally. I might go meet friends for dinner or drinks in East Liberty or Shadyside or I might run up to McKnight Road to eat at Chipotle or buy an item from the Ross Park Mall.
It didn't even cross my mind moving into the city that I would use McKnight Rd but I do a lot for things I can't find close to me in the city.

[BrianTH]

Random follow up to my random comment . . .

Here is a cool 1900 sketch of Evans City:



Big version:

http://tile.loc.gov/image-services/jp2.py?data=/service/gmd/gmd382/g3824/g3824e/pm007740.jp2&res=1

If you blow up the big version you can see the famous passenger rail station built over Breakneck Creek (marked 10 at Pittsburg Street).

Some of the buildings in that sketch are still around. Here, for example, is the big building at the corner of Pittsburg (now Main) Street and Washington:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7690975,...emhkw3WhQFAFA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

And the bank building at Pittsburg (Main) and Jackson:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7694147,...7p_lYzkoAjkKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Intact block along Pittsburg (Main) near Harrison including church and residences:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7696513,...bNHOBgg5Tv7_yazttZYCw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Washington Trail house along Pittsburg (Main) near Harrison:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7697712,...IHuAdezD1ecLXAtlkBINw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Another cool house at Harrison and Jackson:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7688478,...iFsK-4nQd25B5a3b2es-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Church at Harrison and Van Buren:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7671901,...afPSDFyNOunEd-M0dEvew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Anyway, that is part of the appeal of reusing this line (still used lightly for freight) if we ever do a North Hills commuter rail service. These historic towns were built up around the rail stations, and the TOD potential is very large.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Urbana;7131337
[IMG

http://www.upmc.com/locations/hospitals/presbyterian/Picture%20Library/presbyterian-master-plan-1-600px.jpg[/IMG]

Source and a handful of other renderings.

It is a little disappointing to see such a prominent corner go unused. But then again, I would bet UPMC is saving it for something pretty huge down the line.

The new design is a big improvement from that white and blue Lego-looking tower... shows off the old Presbyterian University Hospital bldg much more prominently.

I wouldn't bet on anything too huge for that corner lot. Hospitals like to create a campus-type environment, and they seem to like green space more and more... even in an urban campus environment.

But of course they also like to land bank, so I certainly wouldn't rule a big development out there. Hospital complexes are an entirely different animal than other developments though. Financing considerations aside, connectivity between buildings in the complex is a major consideration... and so what we usually see with hospital expansion is the "pile" that just keeps being added on to... like a sandcastle that you keep adding one more little plastic cup sand turret to.

[Minivan Werner]

I know those tracks in Evans City are used by heavy rail transporters (or whatever you call them), so I don't know if they could work steady passenger rail around the existing traffic? And since the gauge is different you'd have to switch trains to transfer from the existing LRT to the north end. Although that's not a huge deal.

My other concern would be that it wouldn't provide service to any decently-sized population centers. Valencia, Mars and Evans City are pretty tiny. A lot of people might have a Valencia or Mars address but that's mostly due to the sprawl and housing developments outside of it. But Etna & Millvale are a lot bigger.

[TBone7281]

I noticed a hearing, uhh... notice, while on my walk this morning:



The URA wants to re-zone the Terminal building property from "Specially Planned District Number 8" to normal "Urban Industrial". I looked up the documents specified by the notice:

Zone Change Petition

Zoning Text Change

I'm not sure I follow what they want to do, if anything, though. The notice attached to the telephone pole just says they want to rezone. The Zone Change Petition seems to imply nothing much will change. And the Text Change document says, in part:

An Ordinance amending the Pittsburgh Code, Title Nine, Zoning, Chapter 909.01.O, SP,
Specially Planned District with minor revisions to SP-8/Riverfront Landing in order to make
adjustments to the site to no longer include the Terminal Building property within the Specially
Planned District.

There are also some reduced height restrictions (that is, maximum height is lower by several floors). I'm not sure if that's anything new though.