DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[DownhomeDenver]

And btw Brainpath, thank you....give me landscrapers or monoliths or commie blocks or whatever the hell we are calling it today if it means more and more and more people walking those empty streets you observed!!! Thank you!!

Because anybody that thinks that these buildings are going to last forever is naive. All you have to do is look back over the past 150 or so years that Denver has been in existence and you can see for yourself how buildings have been built, torn down, replaced, asphalted, dug up, built up, etc. Someday there will be no more land left in downtown and it's surrounding hoods. And those buildings in Arapahoe Square or Ballpark or wherever that were built out of sticks and stucco would most likely be the first to go. We are indeed a throw away society and it's real easy to tear down sticks. Thank goodness for that.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

That's fair, although I can't tell if you are alleging incompetence or utterly corrupt motives with respect to the construction defect ordinance. I don't think these are unintended consequences at all - I think what is happening was perfectly predictable to the drafters, and they just didn't care. It's pretty rare, I think, that benign intentions lead to drastic consequences. Where we see drastic things happen, more often than not, somebody was thinking it through carefully.

You either work with the most cognizant, perceptive, people with huge amounts of analytical foresight who's talents to foresee first, second, and third order effects should be channeled towards even greater issues; or you're giving them way too much credit.

I prefer the theory that, "the dumbasses didn't know better" to attribute unforeseen outcomes because 99.99% of the people on this planet can't do what you claim. Those that do are working at Google and the likes- not drafting state legislation at ALEC or whatever the liberal counterpart is.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You either work with the most cognizant, perceptive, people with huge amounts of analytical foresight who's talents to foresee first, second, and third order effects should be channeled towards even greater issues; or you're giving them way too much credit.

I prefer the theory that, "the dumbasses didn't know better" to attribute unforeseen outcomes because 99.99% of the people on this planet can't do what you claim. Those that do are working at Google and the likes- not drafting state legislation at ALEC or whatever the liberal counterpart is.

So you think there is nobody in the state of Colorado (and no lawyer anywhere in the world, even the $1,000/hour NYC/London types) as intelligent as the folks at Google? You must work in a sad industry. I very much disagree. Most tech people I know are dumb as posts with anything but narrow technical stuff - they're used to linear thinking. If there's anybody who can't predict even second order effects, it's them.

[TakeFive]

balugajames... Interesting thoughts and ideas actually.

Also interesting is that the pending I-70 East project has been a good ten year thoughtful and very deliberative process with a gazillion public presentations and meetings. I believe that many of your ideas were considered as part of the EIS process. You might enjoy reading up on the many EIS studies that were done which went through extensive public comment and review periods. The project even has its own web page called I-70 East.

[navyweaxguy]

Another crazy thought to stir the pot. Open 16th street back to cars. You are never going to get people to walk down 17th or 18th as long as 16th is the way it is now.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by DownhomeDenver

Are you seriously kidding me with this??? Look at yourself in the mirror? Maybe you should look in the mirror. Look I'm really sorry, but we are nowhere close to being NYC with subways and alternate means of transportation. We are NOWHERE close to being a Paris or London and even those cities are jammed with cars. Do you even drive these stretches of roadway? Colorado Blvd? 40th St? Monaco? Dahlia? Holly? Have you been on I-70 through that stretch that you think should be ignored??? Oh wait, maybe you work from home so you don't have to deal with any of that. Or you ride your shiny bike everywhere. Well not everyone can do what you do. Some of us do have to own the horrible sin of a motor vehicle.

All this money you're thinking of saving will have to all be used to improve every single damn side street through that entire stretch of North East Denver. You're not saving anybody any clean air friend by letting cars idle at stop lights that are not timed and synchronized. And if you do actually drive around the metro area there are plenty of corridors where the lights are not timed effectively to allow good flow of traffic so cars sit and pollute. OMG this whole mentality about how evil the car is-I get it, I really do. I know it destroyed downtown Denver and many other downtowns across this country. I know we hate suburbs and we hate suburbanites with their 3.5 kiddies and SUVs and Vans. But the reality of it all is that these people exist and pay taxes and maybe...just maybe...they don't want to live downtown.

So all you're going to do my friend is move traffic into neighborhoods that don't want to see traffic in their neighborhoods...the increased noise, the increased pollution--yes just shift it to the neighborhoods that we havent cared about for years anyway.

You want to force the carless mentality down the throats of Denverites....fine. I know it will have to be done eventually, but until we have a meaningful intra- and intercity streetcar system that truly connect us to our retail and commercial destinations then I'm sorry like it's been said before you will need to pry my hands off my steering wheel.

I-70 needs to be fixed. Once that's out of the way then 270 perhaps? I dont know. The state has big plans for lots of highway upgrades. I don't think we need NEW additional highways, I just think we need to improve what we have and lets get behind the city of Denver to push out some type of screetcar system. I would certainly vote to raise my taxes to do that!

And by the way, it's MOOT point not mute.

Agreed! I-70 needs to be re-built. I'm shocked at the condition of some of the bridges and the viaduct. The bridge that goes over Havana has concrete crumbling off of it, and you can see where they've shoved wooden beams up under it to reinforce it

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by navyweaxguy

Another crazy thought to stir the pot. Open 16th street back to cars. You are never going to get people to walk down 17th or 18th as long as 16th is the way it is now.

While we're being cray cray lets close all of downtown to private autos. Allow buses, light rail, cabs, car2go, zipcar, whatever the other car share is, scooters, skateboards, pedestrians, tuk-tuks, segues, piggy back rides, horsedrawn carriages, golf carts, ziplines, pogo sticks, rollerblades... and I'm probably forgetting some other form I can't think of off the top of my head.. probably some irrelevant mode that only kooks get behind.

[Brock Landers]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

While we're being cray cray lets close all of downtown to private autos. Allow buses, light rail, cabs, car2go, zipcar, whatever the other car share is, scooters, skateboards, pedestrians, tuk-tuks, segues, piggy back rides, horsedrawn carriages, golf carts, ziplines, pogo sticks, rollerblades... and I'm probably forgetting some other form I can't think of off the top of my head.. probably some irrelevant mode that only kooks get behind.

Cosmo Kramer's homeless rickshaws?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by DownhomeDenver

Are you seriously kidding me with this??? Look at yourself in the mirror? Maybe you should look in the mirror. Look I'm really sorry, but we are nowhere close to being NYC with subways and alternate means of transportation. We are NOWHERE close to being a Paris or London and even those cities are jammed with cars. Do you even drive these stretches of roadway? Colorado Blvd? 40th St? Monaco? Dahlia? Holly? Have you been on I-70 through that stretch that you think should be ignored??? Oh wait, maybe you work from home so you don't have to deal with any of that. Or you ride your shiny bike everywhere. Well not everyone can do what you do. Some of us do have to own the horrible sin of a motor vehicle.

All this money you're thinking of saving will have to all be used to improve every single damn side street through that entire stretch of North East Denver. You're not saving anybody any clean air friend by letting cars idle at stop lights that are not timed and synchronized. And if you do actually drive around the metro area there are plenty of corridors where the lights are not timed effectively to allow good flow of traffic so cars sit and pollute. OMG this whole mentality about how evil the car is-I get it, I really do. I know it destroyed downtown Denver and many other downtowns across this country. I know we hate suburbs and we hate suburbanites with their 3.5 kiddies and SUVs and Vans. But the reality of it all is that these people exist and pay taxes and maybe...just maybe...they don't want to live downtown.

So all you're going to do my friend is move traffic into neighborhoods that don't want to see traffic in their neighborhoods...the increased noise, the increased pollution--yes just shift it to the neighborhoods that we havent cared about for years anyway.

You want to force the carless mentality down the throats of Denverites....fine. I know it will have to be done eventually, but until we have a meaningful intra- and intercity streetcar system that truly connect us to our retail and commercial destinations then I'm sorry like it's been said before you will need to pry my hands off my steering wheel.

I-70 needs to be fixed. Once that's out of the way then 270 perhaps? I dont know. The state has big plans for lots of highway upgrades. I don't think we need NEW additional highways, I just think we need to improve what we have and lets get behind the city of Denver to push out some type of screetcar system. I would certainly vote to raise my taxes to do that!

And by the way, it's MOOT point not mute.

Originally Posted by DownhomeDenver

And btw Brainpath, thank you....give me landscrapers or monoliths or commie blocks or whatever the hell we are calling it today if it means more and more and more people walking those empty streets you observed!!! Thank you!!

Because anybody that thinks that these buildings are going to last forever is naive. All you have to do is look back over the past 150 or so years that Denver has been in existence and you can see for yourself how buildings have been built, torn down, replaced, asphalted, dug up, built up, etc. Someday there will be no more land left in downtown and it's surrounding hoods. And those buildings in Arapahoe Square or Ballpark or wherever that were built out of sticks and stucco would most likely be the first to go. We are indeed a throw away society and it's real easy to tear down sticks. Thank goodness for that.

The forum needs a "LIKE" button. You're on fire this morning, keep it up!

[Denver Dweller]

http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=62decc2bcdb733506edccb754&id=11343d1462

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

While we're being cray cray lets close all of downtown to private autos. Allow buses, light rail, cabs, car2go, zipcar, whatever the other car share is, scooters, skateboards, pedestrians, tuk-tuks, segues, piggy back rides, horsedrawn carriages, golf carts, ziplines, pogo sticks, rollerblades... and I'm probably forgetting some other form I can't think of off the top of my head.. probably some irrelevant mode that only kooks get behind.

When I was in high school in Europe, I used rollerblades as my primary mode of transportation. Even then, 16-year-old bunt got scathing ridicule from cyclists. My rollerblades made no sense to them when bicycles were freely available. I was young and naive and thought maybe they had a point - cobblestone certainly makes skating more difficult. But as I grew older, I realized, they were just being themselves: the most arrogant people on earth. Even more arrogant than I am, and slightly crazier. And I've slept in peaceful derision of all cyclists ever since.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So you think there is nobody in the state of Colorado (and no lawyer anywhere in the world, even the $1,000/hour NYC/London types) as intelligent as the folks at Google? You must work in a sad industry. I very much disagree. Most tech people I know are dumb as posts with anything but narrow technical stuff - they're used to linear thinking. If there's anybody who can't predict even second order effects, it's them.

Those that do are working at Google in Boulder (or maybe at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher's Denver office), not at CDOT, the General Assembly, or the AG's office. Or do you guys have a ton of Harvard and Stanford Law grad's milling about lured with the promise of working close to the mountains?

I disagree that legislative decisions are made at the state level with huge amounts of analysis conducted to determine what the second and third order effects are. But maybe that's because I haven't seen a lot of brilliance coming from the State with the entities with which we interact (CDPHE, CDOR, and CDNR). Though I think that partly attributable to the special interests that the state has to deal with on the opposing side that are about as intelligent as a box of organic granola. Which is also the major factor in not factoring in unforseen consequences in new laws- most are intended to satisfy a small interest group who will be contributing in the next election cycle.

(Yes, I work in a sad industry. It's what happens when you become regulated to the point of non-competition in order to mitigate all 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order effects of one's operation)

[navyweaxguy]

The mall is like a gravity well. As long as it stays setup the way it is, people will not wander off of 16th to do any shopping unless there is a destination store. This is especially true for tourists and convention traffic.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Or do you guys have a ton of Harvard and Stanford Law grad's milling about lured with the promise of working close to the mountains?

A lot of Yale, some Harvard. But yes, that is exactly it. That describes the entire power elite of Colorado, actually.

I would say oil & gas regulation has been done quite intelligently in Colorado. Heavy on the granola, yes, but that's the nature of NIMBY groups. Environmental groups are generally more sophisticated, but I am not sure how much they've been in the lead.

In any case, I think second and third order effects are widely understood, it's just that the nature of compromise and the legislative process doesn't allow much for their consideration. And you certainly don't negotiate around them if it can be avoided.

(If we had one-party rule, or a benevolent dictator, maybe that would work better in practice. But I would never confuse that as fumbling; it's just how it works.)

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by navyweaxguy

The mall is like a gravity well. As long as it stays setup the way it is, people will not wander off of 16th to do any shopping unless there is a destination store. This is especially true for tourists and convention traffic.

I enjoyed watching all of the empty "mall shuttles" rumbling down 15th yesterday. That was certainly a failed experiment from a transit standpoint. Of course, it'll be hailed as a victory because of some perceived new vitality on the mall without the buses there. It's hard to prove what didn't happen - the trips not taken; the people inconvenienced; the folks who won't come back; etc. because the shuttle wasn't there to move them around downtown. We'd burn Rome to get a bike lane on the mall.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by navyweaxguy

Another crazy thought to stir the pot. Open 16th street back to cars. You are never going to get people to walk down 17th or 18th as long as 16th is the way it is now.

Has the 16th Street Mall out-lived its usefulness?

"Denver looking at changes to make 16th Street Mall more attractive to locals"
Aug 2, 2015 by Russell Haythorn - 7News Denver

Denver's 16th Street Mall has an uncanny ability to allure visitors, but getting locals to stay and shop is a much different story.

So, this is a summer of experimentation on the Mall, as city leaders try to figure out what works, what doesn't and why so many locals avoid it.

They are doing trial runs on Sundays of running the buses on 15th Street and 17th Street.

At issue is trying to make the Mall a more "mainstream" experience. Too many are uncomfortable or just not attracted to the shopping experience. Partly the Mall is merely a place for people with no money to spend to hang out.

Some "characters" add to the interest and fun; others not so much. While the Mall is of course public space it's not park space, it's a retail corridor. It's not a question of discriminating but rather how to upgrade the appeal to better serve those retailers whose livelihood depends on shoppers.

It will be interesting to see what changes are suggested.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

A lot of Yale, some Harvard. But yes, that is exactly it. That describes the entire power elite of Colorado, actually.

I would say oil & gas regulation has been done quite intelligently in Colorado. Heavy on the granola, yes, but that's the nature of NIMBY groups. Environmental groups are generally more sophisticated, but I am not sure how much they've been in the lead.

I'm not sure that environmental groups are all that sophisticated given that a lot of the cases they pursue are led by first or second year lawyers who want to save the world for a couple years- until the law school bills need paid. O&G is a different beast. It's a sector that has plenty of resources to hire the $1,000/hr lawyers to craft the best regulation out there that allows industry to a) operate relatively unencumbered, and b) mitigate the threat of continuous legal actions. Though it's nice to hear that the Colorado scenery dividend allows the State to hire some top talent without having to pay top dollar.

In any case, I think second and third order effects are widely understood, it's just that the nature of compromise and the legislative process doesn't allow much for their consideration. And you certainly don't negotiate around them if it can be avoided.

That's a pretty reasonable view of the legislative process and something that I can agree with: people involved in the legislative process understand the consequences of proposed actions, but no one cares. Though I would think that would eventually lead to no one thinking about the consequences outside the immediate as it's not relevant to the decision.

(If we had one-party rule, or a benevolent dictator, maybe that would work better in practice. But I would never confuse that as fumbling; it's just how it works.)

An observation that lends credence to Churchill's saying on democracy.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I enjoyed watching all of the empty "mall shuttles" rumbling down 15th yesterday. That was certainly a failed experiment from a transit standpoint.

Eh, I think it may have merit. Not sure how much can be gleaned on a Sunday.

Another consideration might be to pair 16th Street with 15th Street which would eliminate half the challenge of 15th Street. One part being the uber expense in maintaining/repairing the pavers in the bus lanes.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I enjoyed watching all of the empty "mall shuttles" rumbling down 15th yesterday. That was certainly a failed experiment from a transit standpoint. Of course, it'll be hailed as a victory because of some perceived new vitality on the mall without the buses there. It's hard to prove what didn't happen - the trips not taken; the people inconvenienced; the folks who won't come back; etc. because the shuttle wasn't there to move them around downtown. We'd burn Rome to get a bike lane on the mall.

It's the most asinine logic that being applied to the issues on the 16th St Mall- moving the buses off the Mall will magically improve the shopping options with numerous new retail options popping up because buses inhibit retail while bikes create retail (according to some undergrad's bullshit study on bikes on Larimer Street compared to Brighton Blvd). At least that's what I've gathered.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

When I was in high school in Europe, I used rollerblades as my primary mode of transportation. Even then, 16-year-old bunt got scathing ridicule from cyclists. My rollerblades made no sense to them when bicycles were freely available. I was young and naive and thought maybe they had a point - cobblestone certainly makes skating more difficult. But as I grew older, I realized, they were just being themselves: the most arrogant people on earth. Even more arrogant than I am, and slightly crazier. And I've slept in peaceful derision of all cyclists ever since.

I used Rollerblades here for a week.. I couldn't keep coming into work so soaked in sweat that I needed to take a half hour to go shower and change every morning.

All bicyclists in Orlando are either already run over or have a deathwish so I haven't had the pleasure of being teased by them. The transportation equivalent of professor Fink calling you a nerd.