Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[MalcolmTucker]

Except a $5 billion bridge with room for the region to build transit on it. Edit: beaten to it

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Except a $5 billion bridge with room for the region to build transit on it. Edit: beaten to it

They had no choice though. The current Champlain Bridge is the busiest in Canada and is in bad shape. Any government would've been obliged to invest in a new structure (federal bridge). As for the LRT space, it was a demand from the MTQ when they were designing the bridge.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am sure that Montreal's large transit projects are just as eligible as everyone else's (unless there are specific rules about opening things up to competition). The whole running things through Caisse sorta up ends the process, but it will work out in the end.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I am sure that Montreal's large transit projects are just as eligible as everyone else's (unless there are specific rules about opening things up to competition). The whole running things through Caisse sorta up ends the process, but it will work out in the end.

Yes of course they will, I'm not bashing the federal government, it's just that all the future transit projects are being promised by the provincial government or the city. No promised funding from the feds like it's the case for the Confederation Line or the Calgary Green Line.

By the way, I added a "planned" and "completed" section to the first page of this thread. If I am missing any concrete transit projects, please tell me.

[SkahHigh]

Transferred

Originally Posted by officedweller

Don't think these were posted - from TransBC Flickr:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/tranbc/


https://www.flickr.com/photos/tranbc/

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Where are we supposed to build surface/elevated lines in Toronto? Do you know how much expropriation costs? Do we really need a hybrid light rail system particularly with the planned expansion of the GO network?

The RT was built mainly to show off the new technology. Few aside from Vancouver ended up purchasing it. No doubt there is political motivation in the form of new real estate development but also to erase the Ontario government's failure in its ICTS venture.

There's always things to overcome when building underground. The bedrock here is under compressive forces. Drilling a hole in it will cause it to expand into the hole. One miscalculation and it could destroy a tunnel or foundation.

You made my point as to why Toronto builds such little transit with the money it gets'

They could just buy the new MK111 cars and have them slightly modified to handle the SRT tracks..........that would save a cool 2.5 billion. If they demand a subway, then why not simply use the current SRT corridor? If they don't want to use the SRT corridor and still want a subway then why don't they elevate the line? Toronto is the only city on the planet that still tunnels in the suburbs.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You made my point as to why Toronto builds such little transit with the money it gets'

They could just buy the new MK111 cars and have them slightly modified to handle the SRT tracks..........that would save a cool 2.5 billion. If they demand a subway, then why not simply use the current SRT corridor? If they don't want to use the SRT corridor and still want a subway then why don't they elevate the line? Toronto is the only city on the planet that still tunnels in the suburbs.

The tunnels are under sized for Toronto's rather wide subway cars, and iirc the curves aren't usable.

[SkahHigh]

The thing that bugs me is the station/km ratio for the Bloor-Danforth extension. 3 stations for 7km seems like a waste of money as 7km of tunnelling itself costs $1.75 billion. And the line being extended in Scarborough, I don't think the ridership will justify such a massive investment for three stations.

Like ssiguy said, why not just modify the SRT tracks and connect them at Kennedy to have a surface subway in Scarborough?

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You made my point as to why Toronto builds such little transit with the money it gets'

They could just buy the new MK111 cars and have them slightly modified to handle the SRT tracks..........that would save a cool 2.5 billion. If they demand a subway, then why not simply use the current SRT corridor? If they don't want to use the SRT corridor and still want a subway then why don't they elevate the line? Toronto is the only city on the planet that still tunnels in the suburbs.

I already said there are other motivations for replacing the SRT but, throwing subways on the corridor shows how little you know of the route. It would cost a small fortune to make the modifications. All the stations, tunnel, tracks, elevated structure would need to be rebuilt. MK111? Introduce another technology exclusive to this tiny stub line.

I'm thinking beyond just this one project. Scarborough is suburban but, it's a built out borough except for parts around the Rouge valley. You chose to ignore that and rather go on about the SRT. Where can you build new surface or elevated lines without expropriation?

[Innsertnamehere]

The TTC isn't stupid, the first thing they did when considering a subway for Scarborough was look at the current SRT alignment. They determined that the elevated structure would need to be replaced to support larger trains, the curve onto the rail corridor replaced as it is too tight, the rail corridor widened to fit the wider trains, eliminating the possibility of double tracking and increasing service on the Stouffville GO line, and a complete rebuild on Kennedy station to align it down the rail corridor instead of Eglinton. (The rail tracks of the subway currently point down Eglinton, so a turn after the station isn't really possible as you wouldn't emerge into the rail corridor until you are halfway to STC).

Cost? iirc it was something like $4 billion to use the existing alignment. ridership would be lower, it would cost more, and travel times would be longer.

Thus, the current alignment along McCowan.

[WhipperSnapper]

He can obsess about kilometres built but, there is little comparable between Toronto's subways and Skytrain. Can't imagine how vastly different this city would be if the current subway system was Innovia tech with 25% fewer station.

IIRC, the Spadina extension will push Toronto ahead of Montreal in kms built. It's clear who has the better system map though.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

He can obsess about kilometres built but, there is little comparable between Toronto's subways and Skytrain. Can't imagine how vastly different this city would be if the current subway system was Innovia tech with 25% fewer station.

IIRC, the Spadina extension will push Toronto ahead of Montreal in kms built. It's clear who has the better system map though.

Yes it will. Although the 7km Blue Line extension will keep us in the race eventually

[1overcosc]

By which point Toronto will have Eglinton, Finch, Hurontario all built...

keep at it Montreal!

[SteelTown]

Here comes a bumpy and difficult ride...

LRT: Now the difficult work begins
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5768820-lrt-now-the-difficult-work-begins/

It's time to find out how much heavy lifting goes into light rail transit.

City manager Chris Murray will present a report Aug. 10 on the next steps to turn $1 billion in provincial cash into an 11-kilometre LRT on the Main-King corridor.

The city must now nail down an agreement with provincial transit agency Metrolinx on potentially thorny issues like construction phasing, local costs, operations and revenue sharing.

Council is on a summer schedule, but work on LRT continues behind the scenes, including meetings for councillors with Murray and Mayor Fred Eisenberger. (Staffers even took a bus tour Thursday of the LRT route from McMaster to the Queenston traffic circle.)

Expect the report, to be posted Wednesday, to focus on details such as who is in charge, who pays for what and when politicians and the public weigh in.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I already said there are other motivations for replacing the SRT but, throwing subways on the corridor shows how little you know of the route. It would cost a small fortune to make the modifications. All the stations, tunnel, tracks, elevated structure would need to be rebuilt. MK111? Introduce another technology exclusive to this tiny stub line.

I'm thinking beyond just this one project. Scarborough is suburban but, it's a built out borough except for parts around the Rouge valley. You chose to ignore that and rather go on about the SRT. Where can you build new surface or elevated lines without expropriation?

Another practical issue if they rebuilt SRT as a subway extension; How would service be delivered during an extended rebuilding period? By relocating the subway extension as proposed, the SRT can continue to operate until the subway extension is completed.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Another practical issue if they rebuilt SRT as a subway extension; How would service be delivered during an extended rebuilding period? By relocating the subway extension as proposed, the SRT can continue to operate until the subway extension is completed.

I think back when Toronto was planning to rebuild the SRT as an LRT, the plan was for a massive army of bus replacement shuttles. The operating costs would have probably been huge.

I'm still on the fence about the Scarb subway (not being fully familiar with the Toronto planning saga doesn't help)... it really looks like with GO electrification now part of the plan, a subway along McCowan looks kinda redundant, but Scarborough Centre isn't on the GO line and that's a huge traffic generator & regional node, so some sort of rapid transit to serve it is important.

Maybe a rebuild of the SRT using current SkyTrain technology would have been better? It would connect with 3 transit services at Kennedy (GO electrification, Eglinton line, Bloor-Danforth line), rendering it more suited for a transfer than the current setup (where it's literally only ever a one direction transfer!)

The construction impacts could be mitigated by waiting until after GO electrification & the Eglinton line are complete to provide some alternate options.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You made my point as to why Toronto builds such little transit with the money it gets'

They could just buy the new MK111 cars and have them slightly modified to handle the SRT tracks..........that would save a cool 2.5 billion. If they demand a subway, then why not simply use the current SRT corridor? If they don't want to use the SRT corridor and still want a subway then why don't they elevate the line? Toronto is the only city on the planet that still tunnels in the suburbs.

The shoddy numbers they used to justify a Scarborough subway are even worse on the SRT corridors that only see any moderate usage at the Town Center and Kennedy. It is basically just a glorified shutter from the major bus hub to the subway system.

You could easily just modify the corridor for a LRT train that was initially planned and then make a branch expansions to Malvern and UTM. That could be done extra cheap and with a Sheppard extension you create a new hub at Victors and Sheppard and in Marlvern which will both see directed intensification in the coming years.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I already said there are other motivations for replacing the SRT but, throwing subways on the corridor shows how little you know of the route. It would cost a small fortune to make the modifications. All the stations, tunnel, tracks, elevated structure would need to be rebuilt. MK111? Introduce another technology exclusive to this tiny stub line.

I'm thinking beyond just this one project. Scarborough is suburban but, it's a built out borough except for parts around the Rouge valley. You chose to ignore that and rather go on about the SRT. Where can you build new surface or elevated lines without expropriation?

Repeatedly placing a comma after the word "but" shows how little you know of English grammar. That being said, I know that this is a transit thread, so I'll leave it at that.

As for replacing the SRT, my understanding is that it was poorly built, has degraded rapidly over the years, and is not particularly expandable. However, I can certainly understand why, to many, it seems odd that Toronto would be focusing on replacing the SRT, given that it is at least functional. To an outsider like me, it seems to be far more warranted that the city expand the current (minuscule) subway/RT network than demolish and rebuild some of the very few existing kilometres of it.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Repeatedly placing a comma after the word "but" shows how little you know of English grammar. That being said, I know that this is a transit thread, so I'll leave it at that.

What does that have to do with anything?

[TownGuy]

Oops dont mind me...