Winnipeg Construction VIII

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The two on Roslyn are dead and they've both been killed by heritage advocates. The Gas Station one is still a figment of their collective imagination. The Paintbox project on Stradbrook has long been dead and the land was sold to the guys who built the project across the street. The one on Nassau has also long been dead along with the developer and being actively marketed. So far no interested parties. The one on Wardlaw is finished with 13 units, not a single one of which has been sold. And the Ventura property on River is actively being shopped to be unloaded.

Yeah. The one on Nassau is dead. I had heard it was resurrected but I have been told otherwise.

Didn't know that about the Ventura property.

400 wardlaw isn't done. Nice looking building.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by trueviking

A couple are dead. Nassau for sure. Several others that you mention are not.

Thanks for clarifying. It's good to hear things are still proceeding in the village.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Pinus

Thanks for clarifying. It's good to hear things are still proceeding in the village.

Looks like Vike needed a little edit there

Somebody I know was through Wardlaw last week. It's very near completion from what's been relayed to me.

I'm not the bogeyman people. The Village is a terrible investment. Ask those who built the OZ (90 Bole), or that Glass building at 548 Stradbrook or any of the poor Chinese investors sitting on vacant units all over Crescentwood that Ernie Walter grifted them into. Or the group that paid like $40K per door for land at 373 River and only figured out later that there was no market for condos. Or the poor souls who were into the Pulse originally. Or the Christian Science development that still has units for sale.

And the truth is if people weren't so ignorant, it wouldn't be such a bad investment. But based on comparable specs, the area creates a lower per square foot sale price than Transcona for crying out loud. And yet inexperienced developers with other people's money are paying more than twice the per door land cost.

The guy from Wardlaw is some dude off the farm using his family's money. Sure, the building is nice. But what kind of idiot pays condo price for land, builds condo quality spec, and doesn't pre-sell a single unit!? It's no wonder the guy is scrambling to rent them out. He's going to be paying 13 property tax bills and all of the carry costs by himself. The architect at 234 Wellington conned a few people into purchasing in a co-op! The Gas Station theatre is going to have their hand out for ten years before this thing is done.

The whole thing is just hilarious to me, actually.

[trueviking]

I'm secretly glad all the Ernie Walter things aren't happening. It would have hurt the character of the neighbourhood in my opinion.

8 of the 13 OV projects are under construction. 3 are in development. The Walters one is indeed dead. Simplicity indicates, so is the Ventura one. They have a reasonably new sign up, so I assumed it was still moving.

I've heard reasonably positive things about the possibility of Gas Station happening, but I don't disagree that it seems like a long shot. Time will tell I guess.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I'm secretly glad all the Ernie Walter things aren't happening. It would have hurt the character of the neighbourhood in my opinion.

8 of the 13 OV projects are under construction. 3 are in development. The Walters one is indeed dead. Simplicity indicates, so is the Ventura one. They have a reasonably new sign up, so I assumed it was still moving.

I've heard reasonably positive things about the possibility of Gas Station happening, but I don't disagree that it seems like a long shot. Time will tell I guess.

Name the 8...

[borkborkbork]

Forgive all the questions but this is all totally fascinating to me as someone who's been watching the village and all these weird projects recently...

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Somebody I know was through Wardlaw last week. It's very near completion from what's been relayed to me.

Do you know why these aren't listed? They're so close to completion but don't seem to be expending much effort on trying to pre-sell the units. No pricing details on their site, no MLS listing... I want to know about the "dude off the farm"! What's the possible rationale for building *then* selling?

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Ask those who built the OZ (90 Bole)

I was warned away from OZ -- I've heard there are lots of unresolved problems with the quality of construction. I'm not sure this is only a soft-condo-market story.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

that Glass building at 548 Stradbrook

I haven't seen signs there for a while. I was under the impression they had sold all the units.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

or any of the poor Chinese investors sitting on vacant units all over Crescentwood that Ernie Walter grifted them into.

What I don't understand is why they're not just cutting and running on the unbuilt projects. Last I heard they were trying to sell the sites and plans as a package. Why not just sell the land and let someone else do something productive with it?

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Or the group that paid like $40K per door for land at 373 River and only figured out later that there was no market for condos.

Is this not Sandhu? I don't understand how they're managing to stay afloat with so many problematic projects all at once -- 373 River, D Condo, etc. I worry whether the viable projects (Bag Factory?) will go down with the ship.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Or the poor souls who were into the Pulse originally.

What did those units originally cost? With the exception of one that's been on the market for a long time, those units do seem to move when they hit the market...

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Or the Christian Science development that still has units for sale.

511 River? I was pretty sure this project (slowly and inexpensively) sold out. Are there units still owned by related parties?

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The architect at 234 Wellington conned a few people into purchasing in a co-op!

Is this 2 Architecture? So what's the deal with these guys? Sounds like very high philosophy (the clients collaborate in creating the design) that would make for slow construction, tons of expensive design time, and units that are hard to resell later because they're designed to the whim of a particular owner...

[drew]

511 River is sold out.

[Simplicity]

Forgive all the questions but this is all totally fascinating to me as someone who's been watching the village and all these weird projects recently...



Do you know why these aren't listed? They're so close to completion but don't seem to be expending much effort on trying to pre-sell the units. No pricing details on their site, no MLS listing... I want to know about the "dude off the farm"! What's the possible rationale for building *then* selling?

Couldn't tell you. All I know is that he's desperate to sell units at the moment or put renters in the place.

I was warned away from OZ -- I've heard there are lots of unresolved problems with the quality of construction. I'm not sure this is only a soft-condo-market story.

These units even halfway constructed were sitting for 250 days. It's an everything story. Too expensive, too ugly, terrible market

I haven't seen signs there for a while. I was under the impression they had sold all the units.

548 Stradbrook sold out. When all of the units took a 25% haircut in price after sitting for over 100 days

What I don't understand is why they're not just cutting and running on the unbuilt projects. Last I heard they were trying to sell the sites and plans as a package. Why not just sell the land and let someone else do something productive with it?

Best guess: Not to besmirch the name of a dead man, but Ernie Walter was a straight up grifter. He attached value to his work and land that absolutely never existed. As such, he'll have a pile of people invested at a certain value that upon liquidation would never be realized. These corporations would all require some form of organized liquidation (read: bankruptcy) in order to satisfy claims, if it was ever even possible. In the long term, people want their money. They'll wait around as the land 'appreciates' hoping some shmuck comes along and gives them the same value they fell for. Consider this a buy and hold.

Is this not Sandhu? I don't understand how they're managing to stay afloat with so many problematic projects all at once -- 373 River, D Condo, etc. I worry whether the viable projects (Bag Factory?) will go down with the ship.

It was originally a lawyer, Cibinel, and Sandhu. Sandhu sold a bill of goods to the investors (Cibinel and the lawyer) talking about selling condos at over $400/sq ft and they all threw their land together (each owed a piece). Sandhu was going to take fees (surprise) and backstop the mortgage - that was their investment along with 1/3rd of the land. Of course, nobody is going to sell units at over $400/ft in Osborne Village, so the project was turned into a rental after design. Of course, now there's no money to be made, so I believe Cibinel dropped out and Sandhu set to finding their 100 investors and hoping that like Bag Factory and the Adelaide Stables, they can package it into a REIT and move it some day. In the mean time, not their problem.

What did those units originally cost? With the exception of one that's been on the market for a long time, those units do seem to move when they hit the market...

The Pulse had a problem with assignments. The people who bought units to 'flip' ended up stuck with possession and competing with ten other people to sell their units. Most ended up rented out.

511 River? I was pretty sure this project (slowly and inexpensively) sold out. Are there units still owned by related parties?

I was pretty sure there were still a few units left, but that could have changed. Either way, when your profit sits in the last 2 units, holding them for years at a time generally makes life difficult for you. In any case, Stonebridge has had two projects petitioned into bankruptcy in the last 3 months, so if there was ever a doubt as to their judgment, there shouldn't be.

Is this 2 Architecture? So what's the deal with these guys? Sounds like very high philosophy (the clients collaborate in creating the design) that would make for slow construction, tons of expensive design time, and units that are hard to resell later because they're designed to the whim of a particular owner...[/QUOTE]

[/B]It is. And some Vishin Investments inc. They take flimsy 'investment prospectuses' to unsophisticated people and claim to build them their condo units at cost but never actually reveal their cost basis or fee structure. Then they call it a co-op by having everybody sign a unanimous shareholder agreement which is the only bigger nightmare that can inflicted upon somebody than a condo board, and it's all sunshine and lollipops from there. Their other claim is that you can just rent out the unit if you can't sell it by showing you what your returns would look like if you just ignored a few major month to month expenses like condo fees and property taxes, not to mention that you're your own condo and building manager (yay!).[/B]

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by drew

511 River is sold out.

Did it take 4 or 5 years? What was the ultimate discount on the last few units?

[buzzg]

I could't believe how long 511 River took. Seems like 5 years is a good guess to be honest. Don't know if they ran into issues trying to put more floors in a church hall or just inexperienced developers... maybe both. I swear the sign said 50% sold for 3 years.

[drew]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I could't believe how long 511 River took. Seems like 5 years is a good guess to be honest. Don't know if they ran into issues trying to put more floors in a church hall or just inexperienced developers... maybe both. I swear the sign said 50% sold for 3 years.

It was 75% sold by the time construction was in earnest IIRC.

I believe for the last few years it was only a few remaining left over.

It's not like it sat with 50% occupancy. I think there were about 4 or 5 vacant out of 46 for a long time.

There are smallish units there.

Regardless - the building was saved from the wrecking ball, as the previous owner/developer was unable to come up with a plan to develop it at all, and it was deteriorating quickly.

[headhorse]

anyone hear anything about exterior renos to 360 main (including re-clad and re-working of the main floor for retail at P&M)?

[esquire]

^ It has been mentioned sporadically over the years, but nothing firm has been announced... it would be fantastic if the main floor were reworked with something, anything to add a little life to the corner, in the vein of the Starbucks location across Portage.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It has been mentioned sporadically over the years, but nothing firm has been announced... it would be fantastic if the main floor were reworked with something, anything to add a little life to the corner, in the vein of the Starbucks location across Portage.

Hell, even if it's just a new entrance to Scotiabank it'd be better.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

They take flimsy 'investment prospectuses' to unsophisticated people and claim to build them their condo units at cost but never actually reveal their cost basis or fee structure. Then they call it a co-op by having everybody sign a unanimous shareholder agreement which is the only bigger nightmare that can inflicted upon somebody than a condo board, and it's all sunshine and lollipops from there.

Jesus, it's a co-op? So you'd need to come in with 20, 30% down, *if* you could find a lender? And if you want to rent it out or sell, you need approval of everyone else, right?

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

Jesus, it's a co-op? So you'd need to come in with 20, 30% down, *if* you could find a lender? And if you want to rent it out or sell, you need approval of everyone else, right?

From what I've seen of theirs, you need 20% down. Who's financing on the front end, I have no idea. Obviously the people buying the units don't have the financial wherewithal to stand behind the loan. From there, I'm not sure who's lending for the completed units.

The unanimous shareholder agreement is the sort of thing only those who don't quite understand it would agree to. How on earth you can run a building with one is beyond comprehensible to me.

[BAKGUY]

[QUOTE=headhorse;7113461]anyone hear anything about exterior renos to 360 main (including re-clad and re-working of the main floor for retail at P&M)?[/QUOTE

I am also not finding any concrete mention of this proposal.
Well, I and many others would be thrilled to see that hideous depressing Bilious Horrid colour replaced. From the get go that colour was a major let down as it was originally supposed to be 40 floors, 2 twin towers and finished cladding in either an off white or else white / silver tone with green tinted glass panels for windows. This change with the correct colour tone would make a huge difference for the street presence and how the city is captured in photographs and postcards. I am thinking a perhaps a blue / silver/ grey or a black / charcoal/ granite/ slate ? Anything would be a vast improvement. In winter it is especially ugly as is.
How sweet would it be that a twin tower would be built there in a few years or a combo hotel/ office tower?
In terms of the retail renos:
Would that be a retail reconfiguration of the main floor and Scotiabank plaza or also that of Winnipeg Square?

[1ajs]

artistreit bought the grain exchange recently

[rrskylar]

Spent an afternoon at Assiniboine Park yesterday, parking was at a premium with all parking lots full and just about every spot along roadways taken, can't believe how asinine Katz's plan to sell a lot for condo development in a frickin city part was and how it even got traction, shocking that there were even a few meatheads in this thread that even supported the shortsighted plan!

[buzzg]

The Reh-Fit has been planning an expansion for a year or two now that would include a pool and a much larger gym, and I've heard that it was actually going to go on the easternmost side of the lot and be connected by walkway to the existing building... City informed them some of their land will be expropriated for the underpass, and they have to go back to the drawing board now.