The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[MalcolmTucker]

35 minutes for 26 kilometres isn't rapid? (the SE segment)

[Innsertnamehere]

Toronto will hit over 100km once Hurontario is finished in the early 2020's. Eglinton + finch + spadina + Scarborough + Hurontario will result in around 120km of in service rail.

Now going by the definition of rail transit, Toronto has long surpassed 100km of rail transit with its streetcar network..

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

Sorry to burst your bubble, but light rail isn't rapid transit. The only rapid transit systems in Canada are the Toronto subway, Montreal Metro and some could say Vancouver's SkyTrain on the Expo and Millenium lines.

Calgary will have a good light rail network though.

Why would the Canada Line not be rapid transit? It's has the same characteristics as the Toronto subway. And I think the Expo and Millennium Lines are undoubtedly rapid transit too. They're grade-separated and while the trains are a little narrower doesn't change anything.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

35 minutes for 26 kilometres isn't rapid? (the SE segment)

The definition of rapid transit isn't necessarily the speed, but the capacity and the entirely dedicated/separated trackage.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Why would the Canada Line not be rapid transit? It's has the same characteristics as the Toronto subway. And I think the Expo and Millennium Lines are undoubtedly rapid transit too. They're grade-separated and while the trains are a little narrower doesn't change anything.

Two-car trains qualify for medium capacity transit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-capacity_rail_transport_system

I personally qualify the SkyTrain as rapid transit though because of the frequency and dedicated tracks.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

The definition of rapid transit isn't necessarily the speed, but the capacity and the entirely dedicated/separated trackage.

The design capacity will be higher than the Canada Line max. So yeah?

Also, replying to your edit, I don't think Toronto hits 30,000 p/h/d today. (Yonge-University trains run every 2-3 minutes during the rush hours and every 4-5 minutes outside the rush hours, crush capacity at 1100 people in the new rockets). To hit high capacity, would need to reliably run rockets only every 2 minutes 11 seconds.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

Sorry to burst your bubble, but light rail isn't rapid transit. The only rapid transit systems in Canada are the Toronto subway, Montreal Metro and some could say Vancouver's SkyTrain on the Expo and Millenium lines.

Calgary will have a good light rail network though.

How could SkyTrain not be considered rapid transit? A grade separated, electric rail system with an exclusive right of way.

[SkahHigh]

All about capacity guys. Go read about it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit

Plus I said a few posts up that I personally considered SkyTrain as rapid transit...

[Nouvellecosse]

Good lord... don't tell me you people are embarking on yet another rapid transit debate.

[Daveography]

^ I was just going to say, not this again.

Though it is pretty much right on schedule for this particular repeating argument.

[SkahHigh]

I was just correcting Chad on the C-Train, didn't mean to spark a debate. For sure Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa qualify as light rail. Not even sure if the Crosstown qualifies as rapid transit.

[TorontoDrew]

The Crosstown most definitely qualifies as rapid transit.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

The Crosstown most definitely qualifies as rapid transit.

The Crosstown is an LRT (light rail transit) just like the Finch West LRT:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglinton_Crosstown_line

It'll run on Eglinton and rely on traffic signals... Just saying. Light rail doesn't mean it's not good transit.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by osmo

Look how much track $2B gets you! I hate how Toronto has some fear of building high quality LRT. I suspect alot of that is going via ROW on roads as that alignment looks way to strat, but nonetheless your getting cross town trackage for the cost of what we are trying to build for a stump Subway on lands which are just as sparse.

I believe that map is for the full build-out, and not for what it will look like upon the start of service.

[Beedok]

How's the AMT to use?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by VIce

I believe that map is for the full build-out, and not for what it will look like upon the start of service.

The full build out at $4.5 billion, which the federal contribution of $1.5 billion (over 20 years) was announced today. Alberta's funding to municipalities is done very differently than in other provinces, so this announcement effectively made funding the full project at $4.5 billion a pro forma exercise.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

All about capacity guys. Go read about it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit

Plus I said a few posts up that I personally considered SkyTrain as rapid transit...

Don't want to get into the debate, but I fall victim every time.

I looked through your link and didn't see any numbers in terms of capacity. What capacity is considered "rapid transit". And is that current capacity or ultimate capacity (i.e. Confederation Line will start at 12,000 phpd but can easily achieve 18,000+ with higher frequency and 24,000+ with platform extensions)?

And if you link qualifies Docklands LRT in London as rapid transit, surely Vancouver's Canada Line is rapid transit.

Final note on Ottawa; the Confederation Line will be fully grade separated, so rapid transit. The Trillium Line is neither rapid transit nor LRT. It's something no other city has been stupid enough to try.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Don't want to get into the debate, but I fall victim every time.

I looked through your link and didn't see any numbers in terms of capacity. What capacity is considered "rapid transit". And is that current capacity or ultimate capacity (i.e. Confederation Line will start at 12,000 phpd but can easily achieve 18,000+ with higher frequency and 24,000+ with platform extensions)?

And if you link qualifies Docklands LRT in London as rapid transit, surely Vancouver's Canada Line is rapid transit.

Final note on Ottawa; the Confederation Line will be fully grade separated, so rapid transit. The Trillium Line is neither rapid transit nor LRT. It's something no other city has been stupid enough to try.

It's not necessarily about the numbers, it's about the amount of cars for capacity. For example, the Montreal Metro usually has 6 to 9 cars, the NYC Subway has 8 to 11 cars while the Toronto Subway has 4 to 6 cars I believe (maybe someone from TO can correct me). The trains have a much higher capacity to transport people fast. Double the amount of cars is a lot more passengers carried. That is how I see it.

As for the Confederation Line, it is indeed grade separated and electrified. But I guess because of the train type (Alstom Citadis), which is very low floor, it qualifies as light rail. At least on Wikipedia it does, and so does the city of Ottawa on it's website (they call it an LRT).

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

It's not necessarily about the numbers, it's about the amount of cars for capacity. For example, the Montreal Metro usually has 6 to 9 cars, the NYC Subway has 8 to 11 cars while the Toronto Subway has 4 to 6 cars I believe (maybe someone from TO can correct me). The trains have a much higher capacity to transport people fast. Double the amount of cars is a lot more passengers carried. That is how I see it.

As for the Confederation Line, it is indeed grade separated and electrified. But I guess because of the train type (Alstom Citadis), which is very low floor, it qualifies as light rail. At least on Wikipedia it does, and so does the city of Ottawa on it's website (they call it an LRT).

But C-Train cars are longer than individual subway cars (a 3 car C-Train is nearly as long as a 6 car subway train) and have a capacity of over 200 people per car (giving a four car train capacity of nearly 1000).

[Chadillaccc]

It's going to be a great development for the city And this is on top of the $5 billion completion of the ring road. This could be the biggest era for infrastructure spending in Calgary history, especially if the Heritage Flood Diversion tunnel and downtown subways go through in the 2020s.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

It's not necessarily about the numbers, it's about the amount of cars for capacity. For example, the Montreal Metro usually has 6 to 9 cars, the NYC Subway has 8 to 11 cars while the Toronto Subway has 4 to 6 cars I believe (maybe someone from TO can correct me). The trains have a much higher capacity to transport people fast. Double the amount of cars is a lot more passengers carried. That is how I see it.

As for the Confederation Line, it is indeed grade separated and electrified. But I guess because of the train type (Alstom Citadis), which is very low floor, it qualifies as light rail. At least on Wikipedia it does, and so does the city of Ottawa on it's website (they call it an LRT).

I think we are splitting hairs regarding whether any LRT system is rapid transit. Rapid transit has nothing to do with capacity, grade separations, type of vehicle, source of power or distance between stations. Rapid transit is about frequency and speed. Even on that there is no agree definition of when a system is rapid or not. I would say that the Confederation line qualifies as rapid transit.

With respect to the Trillium line it is not the technology that has made the line unreliable, slow and inefficient. The problem is with the elected politicians not having unrealistic expectations for the small amount of money spent and transit staff not having any real experience with rail construction and costs. This is a prime example of getting what you pay for.