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  #14841  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2015, 4:52 PM
ATLSkyPalaceOwner ATLSkyPalaceOwner is offline
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Originally Posted by Canguy View Post
33 Peachtree 2nd half to start Monday. The Parking Garage is now housing all the cars from the surface lot making way for the rest of construction to start.
I figured this was imminent because I noticed cars had stopped parking in the uncovered portion of the lot.

Does the parking area extend to under where the tower is, i.e. the "incomplete" portion of the parking garage that they are working on now?
     
     
  #14842  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2015, 5:11 PM
GeorgiaPeanuts GeorgiaPeanuts is offline
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The Grand China/Exxon property in Buckhead Village is under contract so the proposal for that lot could be moving forward to permitting soon
http://buckheadview.com/2015/07/17/grand-china-exxon-station-sites-sold-for-new-apartment-complex/

     
     
  #14843  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2015, 5:18 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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The Grand China/Exxon property in Buckhead Village is under contract so the proposal for that lot could be moving forward to permitting soon
The deal with Twilliger Papas fell through. A new developer, Preserve Properties, has the site under contract. Preserve Properties most recent development is 92 West Paces, the apartment complex beside the St. Regis.

     
     
  #14844  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2015, 6:54 PM
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A few things to consider:

1) Related wholly owns Equinox, and through Equinox, Soul Cycle. My guess is that if Equinox were coming to Midtown, it would have been in Related's building, instead of the Whole Foods, but I could be mistaken. Equinox also acquired Sport Club LA last year, which is even more upscale.

Gym memberships at Equinox start at $150-200 in most cities, at least that I'm aware of. Are there any successful gyms in Atlanta that might approach that? It would be a big leap if the most expensive gym that wasn't part of a private club was only like $50/mo.

Also just because the comment was made...Equinox doesn't necessarily target the gay population. It's exclusive, and gays love to be exclusive so sometimes they are naturally drawn. But for instance, in SF, the gays definitely have their own gyms, and there is no Equinox in Castro (though a Soul Cycle just opened). SF has a ton of gyms that are in the $80-$130 range, sort of above the 24 Hr Fitness level, and it has gyms that are even far more expensive than Equinox. There are only 3 Equinoxes (one was a Sports Club LA which is even more expensive) and they target the financial district workers/preppy crowd (old stock exchange building in the FiDi, Market St in the Four Seasons, and the Cow Hollow/Pac Heights area, which couldn't be demographically more different from the Castro/Mission area).


2) I'm really excited (most excited) about NCR. I'm still not holding my breath on 98 14th St...I'm thinking that will be first to start in the next cycle.

RE: NCR, though, 485K sf is large, but not that large. If this is to be a corporate HQ building, particularly one that is single tenant and not multi-tenant (NCR being a research heavy firm, I believe, likely makes the prospect of a multi-tenant building more difficult), then the floorplates will be quite large. The site itself is quite large. No reason to build tall and slender.

For instance, tech firms really want those 30K+++ sf floorplates. Hence Ponce City Market. Difficult to find sites in a CBD that can support 30K+ floorplates easily, though probably still relatively easy in Atlanta. I would think even the NCR site can. Law firms and financial services firms have smaller offices and value window offices more, thus 15-25K sf floorplates are fine for them.

Let's just posit 30K sf floorplates for NCR. That's not extreme at all. In fact, really tall slender buildings have even larger floorplates. Salesforce Tower in SF will have 25K sf floorplates and it will appear slender at only 1,070 ft.

Maybe it's 30K sf or let's call it 25K sf in lower floors and 15K sf in upper. That makes it almost identical to LinkedIn's building that is just wrapping up here in SF. 370 ft and 26 stories with 452K rentable square feet.

http://www.tishmanspeyer.com/properties/222-second-street#

Just food for thought. I wouldn't personally hold my breath for much more than 30 stories or ~400-450 ft. I don't think it will happen with NCR, but I think they can hire a good architectural firm and still make a statement at 300-400 ft right beside the highway, which makes even a shorter building way more visible.



3) RE: running out of developable sites and needing to clear some single family housing out.

I'm sure the discussion in Seattle concerning this very thing sprang to mind for some of you. I don't think Atlanta is even close to there yet. I was just in Atlanta this summer admiring all the construction. But it still hit me hard how sparsely built up the city still is. There are TONS of lots laying around. Land prices are still dirt cheap. They really are...$10M/acre is nothing. Especially with Atlanta's propensity to allow for and build tall. Miami's CBD has now exceeded $100M/acre. SF's has exceed $200M/acre. We won't even broach what an acre would cost in Manhattan if an acre existed. Related's land basis in Miami alone for some projects probably approaches the hard costs they are projecting for their tower in Atlanta. That's a huge thing.

So Seattle is thinking about eliminating more SFR and up-zoning some existing SFR districts. Consider that its greater downtown area (think DT Atl + Midtown) has about 60 million sf of office (nearly 2x greater Atlanta CBD), 15K hotel rooms (equivalent to greater Atlanta CBD), and probably 10x as many residential towers/5x as many residents, and an overall city density of around 8K ppsm approaching 3x the density of Atlanta city proper, it's in a different ballpark of needing to figure out a way to continue to grow up as it truly runs out of space/lots. I'd say fortunately for development/developers, Atlanta is not even close to there yet.


4) Where are the construction update pics?
     
     
  #14845  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2015, 7:59 PM
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[QUOTE=simms3_redux;7099953]A few things to consider:

3) RE: running out of developable sites and needing to clear some single family housing out.

I'm sure the discussion in Seattle concerning this very thing sprang to mind for some of you. I don't think Atlanta is even close to there yet. I was just in Atlanta this summer admiring all the construction. But it still hit me hard how sparsely built up the city still is. There are TONS of lots laying around. Land prices are still dirt cheap. They really are...$10M/acre is nothing. Especially with Atlanta's propensity to allow for and build tall. Miami's CBD has now exceeded $100M/acre. SF's has exceed $200M/acre. We won't even broach what an acre would cost in Manhattan if an acre existed. Related's land basis in Miami alone for some projects probably approaches the hard costs they are projecting for their tower in Atlanta. That's a huge thing.

So Seattle is thinking about eliminating more SFR and up-zoning some existing SFR districts. Consider that its greater downtown area (think DT Atl + Midtown) has about 60 million sf of office (nearly 2x greater Atlanta CBD), 15K hotel rooms (equivalent to greater Atlanta CBD), and probably 10x as many residential towers/5x as many residents, and an overall city density of around 8K ppsm approaching 3x the density of Atlanta city proper, it's in a different ballpark of needing to figure out a way to continue to grow up as it truly runs out of space/lots. I'd say fortunately for development/developers, Atlanta is not even close to there yet.


The idea that Atlanta is running out of buildable sites is laughable-- (very, very laughable)-- Atlanta has one of the least dense central core areas of any major American city, between all of the surface parking lots, small or abandoned buildings and 50 year old parking decks, we have a ton of buildable space. the idea that we would demolish Atlanta's single-family neighborhoods for commercial and residential high rises is beyond ludicrous and downright offensive-- the balance between beautiful single family neighborhoods and large development is the very thing that makes Atlanta unique and attractive-- the neighborhoods should be sacrosanct.
     
     
  #14846  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2015, 8:54 PM
Canguy Canguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLSkyPalaceOwner View Post
I figured this was imminent because I noticed cars had stopped parking in the uncovered portion of the lot.

Does the parking area extend to under where the tower is, i.e. the "incomplete" portion of the parking garage that they are working on now?
Yes

The parking deck is 7 floors and will extend from Peachtree Place to 8th Street.
     
     
  #14847  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 12:03 AM
Ant131531 Ant131531 is offline
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It's not necessarily that Atlanta is running out of land like a city like SF or Manhattan, but developers here love huge lots so that they can build mega 300-400 unit projects. We never really seem to get boutique projects that are of the range of 80-120 units. You see that ALOT in Seattle. Imagine several smaller scale projects infilling Edgewood Avenue up to the Beltline from Downtown. You'd have a nice 2-3 mile continuous streetwall radiating from Downtown.

That's why I love "The Edge" project in downtown Atlanta. It's perfect infill at 120 units. We really need more of that. We're running out of lots for the huge apartment complexes in the inner Beltline area, at least to the east/Northeast of Downtown where everyone wants to live. Atlanta will probably need to start re-zoning soon.
     
     
  #14848  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 12:18 AM
JR Ewing JR Ewing is offline
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Lame!
     
     
  #14849  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 12:41 AM
arjay57 arjay57 is offline
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Originally Posted by Verge View Post
The idea that Atlanta is running out of buildable sites is laughable-- (very, very laughable)-- Atlanta has one of the least dense central core areas of any major American city, between all of the surface parking lots, small or abandoned buildings and 50 year old parking decks, we have a ton of buildable space. the idea that we would demolish Atlanta's single-family neighborhoods for commercial and residential high rises is beyond ludicrous and downright offensive-- the balance between beautiful single family neighborhoods and large development is the very thing that makes Atlanta unique and attractive-- the neighborhoods should be sacrosanct.
I agree. We are many, many decades away from running out of developable land.
     
     
  #14850  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 2:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Verge View Post
The idea that Atlanta is running out of buildable sites is laughable-- (very, very laughable)-- Atlanta has one of the least dense central core areas of any major American city, between all of the surface parking lots, small or abandoned buildings and 50 year old parking decks, we have a ton of buildable space. the idea that we would demolish Atlanta's single-family neighborhoods for commercial and residential high rises is beyond ludicrous and downright offensive-- the balance between beautiful single family neighborhoods and large development is the very thing that makes Atlanta unique and attractive-- the neighborhoods should be sacrosanct.
You can laugh all you want, it's reality. Atlanta isn't Seattle, San Francisco, or Miami. It is its own market with its own demand. No one is saying we should demolish single family neighborhoods, but they do alter how Atlanta's "urban" boundaries grow & develop.

I disagree that the neighborhoods should be sacrosanct.
     
     
  #14851  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 3:37 AM
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Originally Posted by simms3_redux View Post

So Seattle is thinking about eliminating more SFR and up-zoning some existing SFR districts. Consider that its greater downtown area (think DT Atl + Midtown) has about 60 million sf of office (nearly 2x greater Atlanta CBD), 15K hotel rooms (equivalent to greater Atlanta CBD), and probably 10x as many residential towers/5x as many residents, and an overall city density of around 8K ppsm approaching 3x the density of Atlanta city proper, it's in a different ballpark of needing to figure out a way to continue to grow up as it truly runs out of space/lots. I'd say fortunately for development/developers, Atlanta is not even close to there yet.

Downtown and Midtown Atlanta contain almost 50 million sq. ft. of office space... If Seattle has 60 million (it's own website claims 44 million), it isn't close to being "twice" Atlanta's core... I can't find the total number of hotel rooms in Atlanta's core but the Downtown Improvement District alone has almost 12,000. Downtown Atlanta alone contains a population of almost 30,000 (not including Midtown)... Downtown Seattle's website claims as of 2010 a population of 65,000 which is not close to "5X" Atlanta... Emporis claims Seattle has 269 highrises total and 93 skyscrapers. Emporis claims Atlanta has 279 highrises total and 93 skyscrapers. No evidence at all exists that Seattle's downtown has "10X" as many residential towers as Atlanta's Downtown/Midtown core... It's a mathematical impossibility... Sorry for sounding like a knowitall perhaps but I disdain incorrect information...
     
     
  #14852  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 4:02 AM
TarHeelJ TarHeelJ is offline
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Originally Posted by Vaden View Post
Downtown and Midtown Atlanta contain almost 50 million sq. ft. of office space... If Seattle has 60 million (it's own website claims 44 million), it isn't close to being "twice" Atlanta's core... I can't find the total number of hotel rooms in Atlanta's core but the Downtown Improvement District alone has almost 12,000. Downtown Atlanta alone contains a population of almost 30,000 (not including Midtown)... Downtown Seattle's website claims as of 2010 a population of 65,000 which is not close to "5X" Atlanta... Emporis claims Seattle has 269 highrises total and 93 skyscrapers. Emporis claims Atlanta has 279 highrises total and 93 skyscrapers. No evidence at all exists that Seattle's downtown has "10X" as many residential towers as Atlanta's Downtown/Midtown core... It's a mathematical impossibility... Sorry for sounding like a knowitall perhaps but I disdain incorrect information...
I wanted to respond to that comment but didn't feel like looking up all the facts, so thank you. I thought the whole thing sounded a bit exaggerated...Seattle is obviously more densely built than Atlanta and has less vacant lots for development, but we need to stay within the confines of reality.
     
     
  #14853  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 4:22 AM
Vaden Vaden is offline
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Originally Posted by TarHeelJ View Post
I wanted to respond to that comment but didn't feel like looking up all the facts, so thank you. I thought the whole thing sounded a bit exaggerated...Seattle is obviously more densely built than Atlanta and has less vacant lots for development, but we need to stay within the confines of reality.
Amen and amen... Wildly inaccurate claims cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged by facts. No offense to Seattle as it is an amazing city and has a natural beauty virtually unmatched. However, Atlanta is larger by almost any measure aside from city proper population and density.
     
     
  #14854  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 4:23 AM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Vaden View Post
Downtown and Midtown Atlanta contain almost 50 million sq. ft. of office space... If Seattle has 60 million (it's own website claims 44 million), it isn't close to being "twice" Atlanta's core... I can't find the total number of hotel rooms in Atlanta's core but the Downtown Improvement District alone has almost 12,000. Downtown Atlanta alone contains a population of almost 30,000 (not including Midtown)... Downtown Seattle's website claims as of 2010 a population of 65,000 which is not close to "5X" Atlanta... Emporis claims Seattle has 269 highrises total and 93 skyscrapers. Emporis claims Atlanta has 279 highrises total and 93 skyscrapers. No evidence at all exists that Seattle's downtown has "10X" as many residential towers as Atlanta's Downtown/Midtown core... It's a mathematical impossibility... Sorry for sounding like a knowitall perhaps but I disdain incorrect information...
Not sure how many hotel rooms Atlanta has in Downtown and Midtown, but Atlanta is fourth in U.S. in number of hotel rooms. Even beating NYC!!!

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/1999/05/31/newscolumn1.html
     
     
  #14855  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 8:07 AM
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Not sure how many hotel rooms Atlanta has in Downtown and Midtown, but Atlanta is fourth in U.S. in number of hotel rooms. Even beating NYC!!!

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/1999/05/31/newscolumn1.html
That's bogus. You typically can't read statistics from local papers. They are in the business of marketing and advertising. From what I've read, Atlanta is around 7 or 8. If you read the New York papers, they'll tell you that NY is now second only to Vegas.
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  #14856  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 3:07 PM
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It's not necessarily that Atlanta is running out of land like a city like SF or Manhattan, but developers here love huge lots so that they can build mega 300-400 unit projects. We never really seem to get boutique projects that are of the range of 80-120 units. You see that ALOT in Seattle. Imagine several smaller scale projects infilling Edgewood Avenue up to the Beltline from Downtown. You'd have a nice 2-3 mile continuous streetwall radiating from Downtown.

That's why I love "The Edge" project in downtown Atlanta. It's perfect infill at 120 units. We really need more of that. We're running out of lots for the huge apartment complexes in the inner Beltline area, at least to the east/Northeast of Downtown where everyone wants to live. Atlanta will probably need to start re-zoning soon.
The City is not going to rezone single-family neighborhoods anytime soon. As a city planner, i can tell you that current zoning in Atlanta would accomodate a city of about 3 times the population. People don't realize, but every major commercial corridor in the city is already zoned for mixed-use developments.

We should only entertain rezoning until there's not one surface parking lot of one-story commercial strip building (a la most of Ponce de Leon Avenue) left. Developers just need to get creative.

if you want to see where I'm talking about, look at these maps. Anywhere that's purple, red, or brown is already designated as appropriate for mixed-use development.
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  #14857  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 3:09 PM
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Why is he linking an article from 1999? Good lord. If you're going to make claims, please try to be recent. You're literally talking 16 years ago LOL. Some people are reaching now.
     
     
  #14858  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 6:44 PM
TarHeelJ TarHeelJ is offline
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Why is he linking an article from 1999? Good lord. If you're going to make claims, please try to be recent. You're literally talking 16 years ago LOL. Some people are reaching now.
It may have actually been true in '99...I seriously doubt it is anymore, but that wasn't really the point. The main issue was all of the inaccuracies in comparing Seattle and Atlanta that made Atlanta look much worse that it is.
     
     
  #14859  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 8:05 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Why is he linking an article from 1999? Good lord. If you're going to make claims, please try to be recent. You're literally talking 16 years ago LOL. Some people are reaching now.
Well someone looks stupid for linking that article.
     
     
  #14860  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2015, 8:23 PM
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Guys, no. And the point wasn't to make Atlanta "look worse". The post was entirely neutral to positive and begging for construction photos, but of course this particular thread in general gets its panties in a wad over the smallest things. Some posters thought Atlanta was on the verge of needing to convert some single family neighborhoods to higher density as "space was running out" and "no more developable sites". Seattle officially is contemplating such rezoning, so the comparison was made because Seattle is at the opposite end of predominantly single family residential cities. It wasn't made to "make Atlanta look bad", it was only used to say, look, this appears to be the point at which such rezoning makes sense, and Atlanta is not close to there yet. Holy smokes you guys...just embarrassing.

Anyway, for facts, to clear the air:

http://www.cushmanwakefield.com/~/media/...ta_Americas_MarketBeat_Office_Q12015.pdf

http://www.cushmanwakefield.com/~/media/...ce_Marketbeat_Office_Suburban_Q12015.pdf

So Seattle is actually like 47 million sf in a more contiguous and confined area (with another 4 million UC) while Atlanta is like 32 million sf (with 0 sf UC until NCR pulls the trigger and starts on ~500k sf) spread between Downtown and Midtown. Realistically, Buckhead is equivalent to Bellevue in Seattle, which is certainly not part of Seattle's CBD and is a separate market. Because Atlanta is just that spread out with so many more sizable submarkets beyond the Perimeter, big real estate brokerages like Cushman Wakefield just consider Buckhead as part of CBD, which is where the 50 million sf comes from. But please, that is not "CBD" for all intents and purposes. That'd be like Century City and all points in between being considered downtown/CBD for LA.

The point still stands that in an area of Seattle that would be equivalent to Downtown up through Coke Building over into Midtown, there is about 150% the office space, and rising rapidly with new construction pushing to close to 200%. So my initial post was about dead on balls accurate for Atlanta and only slightly exaggerated Seattle.

In terms of hotel rooms, Seattle's CBD and Atlanta's CBD (not including Buckhead) have about 15K rooms each (which is what I said, and then you guys went ballistic on this point AND SAID THE SAME DAMN THING). Atlanta's downtown alone has 12K, I believe. So they are very equivalent in that respect (which is what I said...no need to come in with articles trying to then prove Metro Atlanta, in the guise of "Atlanta", has more hotel rooms than NYC - just another example of the ridiculousness of some of you posters). For the record, Chicago, SF, DC, and Boston each have 25K-50K rooms in their general CBD areas (or much smaller city limits with vast bulk right downtown). NYC has about 115K in its city limits (not metro) including a few recent hotel construction booms. And almost all of those are in Manhattan. Only in "Atlanta's world" does Atlanta have more hotel rooms. Why should it?

In terms of downtown residents, "official counts" are so arbitrary because definitions of downtown are so stretched, and lower density southern boom towns tend to stretch them the most as they try to push their "downtown rebirths", but DT Seattle is so far ahead of basically every city in America save for a few. In terms of downtown residents and downtown population, it's even ahead of San Francisco, unless you count like Tenderloin, SOMA, Chinatown, and North Beach "downtown", which I am not. So while you guys might want to find a local Atlanta boost count, the fact remains if Atlanta were close to or ahead of Seattle, it would be notable in this country for its downtown population and it's not. Midtown Atlanta still feels a little less "busy" and less populated than San Diego's, and about equivalent to Denver's. Both great cities on the rise, but not really yet all that notable for having a "downtown" population like Chicago has a downtown population or Center City Philly does. Seattle feels like it's closer to Chicago/Philly than Atlanta/Denver.


I don't want to sound like I'm bashing (bc I'm not), because the whole point was something different. Even in Seattle they aren't quite yet at the point of emergency, needing to absolutely rezone. There are still vacant lots and existing development sites that can be densified. But they are close enough where they are contemplating it and discussing it, since Seattle is another predominantly single family resident city. It's probably the most urban/dense predominantly single family resident city. Atlanta is probably still one of the least dense single family resident cities and has a longgg way to go before people will start and need to start contemplating opening up some single family neighborhoods to densification.

No need to get all up in arms, Seattle was only brought up since they are actually trying to rezone some single family areas into multifamily, so I thought that was what spurred the sentiment for Atlanta.
     
     
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