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  #8101  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 3:40 PM
zakuc258 zakuc258 is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly Fan View Post
Don't underestimate the number and percentage of city dwellers with similar incomes who are empty-nesters and/or migrated from the suburbs, and share similar tastes in shopping with their suburban counterparts. Not to mention the changing and increasingly more positive attitudes of ALL area residents--including those in the suburbs--towards Center City. And my point is that I wouldn't count out a full-blown Center City Bloomie's too soon, especially since--as pointed out above--they're apparently looking for space for such a store:

Bloomingdale’s Is Officially Looking for Space in Center City

And I'm in one of those "well off familes" that live relatively near and frequently shop at Willow Grove Mall. It is NOT a cut above average suburban Philly malls such as Montgomery, Plymouth Meeting, Springfield, Cherry Hill, Moorestown, etc. Among the larger suburban malls, I'd only classify KOP as "a cut above."
I don't think Center City has the demand or spend to warrant a 5th Avenue or Rodeo Drive type street/area. If a full-blown Bloomingdale's does happen that would be fantastic but I don't think everyone should be getting down about the fact that we will have outlets to shop at as well. Having the same retailers as NYC won't help Philadelphia to compete when it comes to tourism either, but having the outlets will.

I think if the outlets spur shopping and attract tourists then that's fantastic and may open the possibility of high end shopping in the future. I'm not quite sure the high end retailers are ready to throw everything they have at Philadelphia until we prove that we are a shopping destination and have the sales to prove it.

I would have to disagree with you about the Willow Grove mall. I work in the Willow Grove area and have been to the mall a couple of times. I can say it is definitely better than the Springfield mall and some of the other malls you mentioned. The Willow Grove mall has a lot nice chain restaurants, Sephora, an Apple store, Williams-Sonoma, Coach, etc. Many of these stores can't be found in other area malls, with the exception of KoP.
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  #8102  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 3:44 PM
Larry King Larry King is offline
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Originally Posted by zakuc258 View Post
I don't think Center City has the demand or spend to warrant a 5th Avenue or Rodeo Drive type street/area. If a full-blown Bloomingdale's does happen that would be fantastic but I don't think everyone should be getting down about the fact that we will have outlets to shop at as well. Having the same retailers as NYC won't help Philadelphia to compete when it comes to tourism either, but having the outlets will.

I think if the outlets spur shopping and attract tourists then that's fantastic and may open the possibility of high end shopping in the future. I'm not quite sure the high end retailers are ready to throw everything they have at Philadelphia until we prove that we are a shopping destination and have the sales to prove it.

I would have to disagree with you about the Willow Grove mall. I work in the Willow Grove area and have been to the mall a couple of times. I can say it is definitely better than the Springfield mall and some of the other malls you mentioned. The Willow Grove mall has a lot nice chain restaurants, Sephora, an Apple store, Williams-Sonoma, Coach, etc. Many of these stores can't be found in other area malls, with the exception of KoP.
The region does have the demand for ultra high end but it was already done in KOP and we don't have the demand for 2.
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  #8103  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 4:44 PM
br323206 br323206 is offline
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Originally Posted by zakuc258 View Post
I don't think Center City has the demand or spend to warrant a 5th Avenue or Rodeo Drive type street/area. If a full-blown Bloomingdale's does happen that would be fantastic but I don't think everyone should be getting down about the fact that we will have outlets to shop at as well. Having the same retailers as NYC won't help Philadelphia to compete when it comes to tourism either, but having the outlets will.
I never get why people here talk like 5th Avenue is ALL ultra-high end shopping. There are plenty of moderately priced retailers with stores on 5th Avenue. Just a few:

Abercrombie
Banana Republic
Urban Outfitters
Hollister
Uniqlo
Gap
H&M
etc. etc. etc.

There is even a freakin' Payless on 5th Avenue! There are also numerous CVSs, Walgreens, etc.

Having some outlet stores and mid to lower tier retailers, even on Walnut, does not preclude us from having higher end retail as well.
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  #8104  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 5:05 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by zakuc258 View Post
I don't think Center City has the demand or spend to warrant a 5th Avenue or Rodeo Drive type street/area. If a full-blown Bloomingdale's does happen that would be fantastic but I don't think everyone should be getting down about the fact that we will have outlets to shop at as well. Having the same retailers as NYC won't help Philadelphia to compete when it comes to tourism either, but having the outlets will.

I think if the outlets spur shopping and attract tourists then that's fantastic and may open the possibility of high end shopping in the future. I'm not quite sure the high end retailers are ready to throw everything they have at Philadelphia until we prove that we are a shopping destination and have the sales to prove it.

I would have to disagree with you about the Willow Grove mall. I work in the Willow Grove area and have been to the mall a couple of times. I can say it is definitely better than the Springfield mall and some of the other malls you mentioned. The Willow Grove mall has a lot nice chain restaurants, Sephora, an Apple store, Williams-Sonoma, Coach, etc. Many of these stores can't be found in other area malls, with the exception of KoP.
I fully agree with you about the higher-end outlets and their attraction for tourists, etc. But I'm stickin' with my own characterization of Willow Grove Mall. I've lived less than 10 miles from it for more than 25 years now, and have raised a shopaholic daughter (now in college) together with my shopaholic wife , and Willow Grove just isn't that unique in the Philly area. In fact, I was there at the Apple Store just last week. I've watched over the past decade or so as they've attempted to upgrade it a bit with the Bloomie's, etc., but when most folks I know (including my own family) want a more upscale shopping experience, they head to KOP, and not Willow Grove (even when, as in my family's case, Willow Grove is closer). Further, you just don't have the concentration and volume of higher-income households within 5-10 miles of Willow Grove Mall that you have within 5-10 miles of KOP, or even in and around Center City (both now and even more so in the near future).

And as I said before, there ARE larger malls in the Philly suburbs other than KOP that offer an equal or better selection of higher end stores, such as Cherry Hill (the FIRST enclosed mall east of the Mississippi! ).

But enough of this, I guess, before summers exiles us to some shopping forum.
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  #8105  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 5:12 PM
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a whole lot of well off families live within 20-30 min of Willow Grove mall and its offerings are a cut above the average generic Philly area mall. The people who make these decisions study demographics, tastes, etc. and they know what these new philadelphians are buying or not buying. I don't see the Philly millenial crowd as being big time brand snobs. I dont see them flocking to Bloomingdales or Saks or Nordstroms. The ages and preferences of middle to upper income people in a suburban area like willow grove arent going to be the same as city dwellers with similar incomes.
But a lot of data they have is dated all the way to the 2010 census. The city has changed so much since then.
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  #8106  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by zakuc258 View Post
I don't think Center City has the demand or spend to warrant a 5th Avenue or Rodeo Drive type street/area. If a full-blown Bloomingdale's does happen that would be fantastic but I don't think everyone should be getting down about the fact that we will have outlets to shop at as well. Having the same retailers as NYC won't help Philadelphia to compete when it comes to tourism either, but having the outlets will.

I think if the outlets spur shopping and attract tourists then that's fantastic and may open the possibility of high end shopping in the future. I'm not quite sure the high end retailers are ready to throw everything they have at Philadelphia until we prove that we are a shopping destination and have the sales to prove it.

I would have to disagree with you about the Willow Grove mall. I work in the Willow Grove area and have been to the mall a couple of times. I can say it is definitely better than the Springfield mall and some of the other malls you mentioned. The Willow Grove mall has a lot nice chain restaurants, Sephora, an Apple store, Williams-Sonoma, Coach, etc. Many of these stores can't be found in other area malls, with the exception of KoP.
Something tells me you don't frequent CC often. Your first sentence and your second to last is very telling.
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  #8107  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 5:51 PM
Frontst17 Frontst17 is offline
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The shops at liberty were severely lacking and it was kind of a waste. This can only be seen as an upgrade. Plenty of young girls teens 20s 30s walk along chestnut and walnut. All of which love Bloomingdales almost as much as they love saving 20-30 bucks shopping at Bloomingdales. If a full fledged store comes to town too then hell yeah. With all the new residents flooding CC it can only be a good thing. Unless you guys are holding out for some other department store...
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  #8108  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry King View Post
The region does have the demand for ultra high end but it was already done in KOP and we don't have the demand for 2.
exactly. Thats a key point- most of these high end stores do not offer multiple locations in the same metro area.
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  #8109  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 7:13 PM
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But a lot of data they have is dated all the way to the 2010 census. The city has changed so much since then.
how do you know they used 2010 data to make decisions about what stores to put downtown? I know more people are here and I know more development is taking place. Im saying that the TYPE of people moving here are generally not the type who are into $400 shoes and other such items. The folks who make decisions about these things know the market and the demographics. I dont see you average urban dwelling hipster dreaming of having K of P duplicated in CC so they can frequent high end stores and spend thousands per year on pricey apparel and pocketbooks. Look at how people dress in CC- they are not the K of P type for the most part.
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  #8110  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 7:54 PM
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  #8111  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
I dont see you average urban dwelling hipster dreaming of having K of P duplicated in CC so they can frequent high end stores and spend thousands per year on pricey apparel and pocketbooks. Look at how people dress in CC- they are not the K of P type for the most part.
I don't see your average urban dwelling hipster buying million-dollar condos and townhouses, either (or even half-million-dollar condos and townhouses), but someone seems to be building and selling a whole bunch of 'em--along with a bunch of high-rent apartments and high-price hotels--in and around Center City. And those folks aren't moving into or staying in Center City and the surrounding neighborhoods just so they can jump in the car and drive out to KOP on the weekends.
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  #8112  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 10:07 PM
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I don't see your average urban dwelling hipster buying million-dollar condos and townhouses, either (or even half-million-dollar condos and townhouses), but someone seems to be building and selling a whole bunch of 'em--along with a bunch of high-rent apartments and high-price hotels--in and around Center City. And those folks aren't moving into or staying in Center City and the surrounding neighborhoods just so they can jump in the car and drive out to KOP on the weekends.
Exactly. Developers are betting big on wealthy boomers relocating to the city. And many are. There are two distinct markets repopulating the city. There's the young (often 'hipsters'), which is spurring a rash of new rentals. Places like the Avenir, AQ Rittenhouse, 1919 Market, etc...But it's not just them. At least it not better not be or all of the very high end condos and townhouses are going to be a bust. Having said that, I think the city needs more growth both as far as population and wealth before it can really accommodate more of the kind of stores we see at KOP. As it is, additions would cannibalize the KOP market. Hopefully we are there before too long.
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  #8113  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2015, 11:24 PM
lsksl lsksl is offline
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how do you know they used 2010 data to make decisions about what stores to put downtown? I know more people are here and I know more development is taking place. Im saying that the TYPE of people moving here are generally not the type who are into $400 shoes and other such items. The folks who make decisions about these things know the market and the demographics. I dont see you average urban dwelling hipster dreaming of having K of P duplicated in CC so they can frequent high end stores and spend thousands per year on pricey apparel and pocketbooks. Look at how people dress in CC- they are not the K of P type for the most part.
The average urban hipster is not the target of these brands in Philly, or New York, or Paris, or London yet they are very noticeable in all these types of cities.
Though there is no official definition of hipsters, one of their characteristics is that they gentrify poor neighborhoods. Most of them are middle class and can't afford pricey apartments in the best neighborhoods so they flock to affordable (many times poor) and interesting ones (Fishtown, E. Passyunk, Templetown, Manayunk, are good examples in Philly). So residents of CC are usually not hipsters though you do see them there because it's the core of the city (just like you see hipsters from Brooklyn and Queens in downtown Manhattan even though they don't live there). Even on 5th Ave and Soho in NYC you see A LOT more regular people shopping for GAP, Forever 21, H&M than shopping for the luxury brands.
I believe there are enough wealthy professionals in the city (usually in their 30s+) who can support luxury brands. Maybe not at the same rate as in KOP which is super famous and attracts all the wealthy Philly suburbs, but definitely smaller stores of popular high-end brands.
Stuart Weitzman, a very expensive shoe/accessories brand recently moved from KOP to CC. A few others as well but I can't remember.
DC recently got a few luxury stores it never had and even though it is much wealthier than Philly in general, it is also 1/3 of Philly's population (and does have malls with such brands in the suburbs.) So I'm guessing there are at least the same amount of wealthy people in Philly.
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  #8114  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2015, 12:23 PM
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........ I think the city needs more growth both as far as population and wealth before it can really accommodate more of the kind of stores we see at KOP. As it is, additions would cannibalize the KOP market. Hopefully we are there before too long.
That will require more high paying jobs downtown, which would hopefully mean more Skyscrapers downtown!
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  #8115  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2015, 12:52 PM
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Exactly. Developers are betting big on wealthy boomers relocating to the city. And many are. There are two distinct markets repopulating the city. There's the young (often 'hipsters'), which is spurring a rash of new rentals. Places like the Avenir, AQ Rittenhouse, 1919 Market, etc...But it's not just them. At least it not better not be or all of the very high end condos and townhouses are going to be a bust. Having said that, I think the city needs more growth both as far as population and wealth before it can really accommodate more of the kind of stores we see at KOP. As it is, additions would cannibalize the KOP market. Hopefully we are there before too long.
Exactly right. The job mix is different here than in DC or NYC and that is reflected in the retail mix. I know someone who works at Brooks Brothers and he said the Philly store doesn't do the same type or voume of business as stores in NYC or DC because of the types of jobs people have here. Wearing suits isn't really necessary for most of the jobs we have here. Go to Wall Street or to DC where you have tons of highly paid lobbyist and people working for legislators and you have a different standard for attire. Pricey housing (by our standards, not by DC, Boston or NYC standards) does not mean we have a lot of rich people. It merely means that people in and around CC have to devote more income to housing than they would've had to 10-15 years ago. Many of these people are not wealthy- they have decent paying jobs and devote a large chunk of their paychecks to rent. We have a recent hire with 6 figure salary who got an apt in CC (actually I can think of 2) for nearly $2k a month. He has a 15 year old paid off car and is a self avowed cheapskate on most issues. He is paying high rent for convenience, not because he enjoys luxurious living or has money to burn. He is the last guy I could see giving a damn about Saks or Gucci- he wouldn't set foot in such stores. There are thousands like him.
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  #8116  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2015, 1:39 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
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We have a recent hire with 6 figure salary who got an apt in CC (actually I can think of 2) for nearly $2k a month. He has a 15 year old paid off car and is a self avowed cheapskate on most issues. He is paying high rent for convenience, not because he enjoys luxurious living or has money to burn. He is the last guy I could see giving a damn about Saks or Gucci- he wouldn't set foot in such stores. There are thousands like him.
No doubt, but there are also thousands of folks moving into greater Center City with significant assets, credit-worthiness (enabling big mortgages), and plenty of cash and liquid assets to spend, many migrating from large homes on the Main Line, in Chestnut Hill, etc. Just ask people like Allan Domb, Carl Dranoff, Tom Scannapieco, etc. And as has been pointed out in media coverage of the current boom, these folks want lots of space and can afford it, leading to significant increases in average square footage of residential units being developed in Center City. And they also want the convenience of city living and all it has to offer and, I suspect, would prefer NOT to have to schlep out to King of Prussia for most of their shopping.

You seem to be focussing on one segment of the population growth in greater Center City, and admittedly it's a significant one both in terms of absolute numbers and in terms of the vibrancy and, well, hipness it brings to the area. But you also seem to be discounting the other major segment of population growth in Greater Center City, which consists of folks who are quite affluent, somewhat older, and are essentially trading their suburban lifestyles for an urban one with its associated amenities and convenience. And then there's what might be called a multiplier effect, by which affluent friends and acquaintances of those folks who may not themselves move into the city, increasingly think of greater Center City as a great place to visit and shop on a more frequent basis. Not to mention, as I said previously, the growing number and increasingly diverse mix of tourists and conventioneers who visit Center City.

So yes, there's a large component of hipster Millennials moving into the city--and thank goodness for that! --but there's also a significant component of older, more affluent folks who are moving into the city, resulting in the need for more retail and businesses to serve their needs. Ideally, greater Center City will develop a healthy mix of retail, restaurants, etc. to serve this diverse growth, as you find in other urban centers that are popular destinations for both tourists and residents.
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  #8117  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2015, 5:35 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Exactly right. The job mix is different here than in DC or NYC and that is reflected in the retail mix. I know someone who works at Brooks Brothers and he said the Philly store doesn't do the same type or voume of business as stores in NYC or DC because of the types of jobs people have here. Wearing suits isn't really necessary for most of the jobs we have here. Go to Wall Street or to DC where you have tons of highly paid lobbyist and people working for legislators and you have a different standard for attire. Pricey housing (by our standards, not by DC, Boston or NYC standards) does not mean we have a lot of rich people. It merely means that people in and around CC have to devote more income to housing than they would've had to 10-15 years ago. Many of these people are not wealthy- they have decent paying jobs and devote a large chunk of their paychecks to rent. We have a recent hire with 6 figure salary who got an apt in CC (actually I can think of 2) for nearly $2k a month. He has a 15 year old paid off car and is a self avowed cheapskate on most issues. He is paying high rent for convenience, not because he enjoys luxurious living or has money to burn. He is the last guy I could see giving a damn about Saks or Gucci- he wouldn't set foot in such stores. There are thousands like him.
Ironically, in spite of your one off anecdotes...it is fact that Philadelphians spend less of their income on housing when compared to peer (or higher) cities.

So regardless of your perceptions, there is a lot of disposable income floating around Philadelphia...particularly greater Center City...whether you wanna call it rich or hipster or poor.

Making $100K per year in NYC is like making $60K in Philadelphia...particularly when you factor in the fact that you cannot get a one bedroom in Manhattan for less than $3,000/month. When you take into account NY State's exhorbitant income taxes (on top of their city tax), then you have even less to play with month to month.

Believe me...people do it here because they have no choice...but there are a lot of well dressed people walking around Manhattan who are broke.
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  #8118  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2015, 5:52 PM
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Ironically, in spite of your one off anecdotes...it is fact that Philadelphians spend less of their income on housing when compared to peer (or higher) cities.

So regardless of your perceptions, there is a lot of disposable income floating around Philadelphia...particularly greater Center City...whether you wanna call it rich or hipster or poor.

Making $100K per year in NYC is like making $60K in Philadelphia...particularly when you factor in the fact that you cannot get a one bedroom in Manhattan for less than $3,000/month. When you take into account NY State's exhorbitant income taxes (on top of their city tax), then you have even less to play with month to month.

Believe me...people do it here because they have no choice...but there are a lot of well dressed people walking around Manhattan who are broke.
Im fully aware that housing dollars go farther here than in NYC. That's not news. Whats also not news is that a)NYC has a much higher population and total number of jobs b)NYC has a lot more high paying jobs (and I'm not talking about Philly high paying) and c)NYC has far more actual rich people than Philly. There are no doubt plenty of house poor people in NYC and other east coast cities. But there are also more people making considerable sums of money.
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  #8119  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2015, 6:02 PM
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Folks, Manhattan is the playground for the rich and wealthy. Need I say more.
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  #8120  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2015, 7:16 PM
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Let's talk about development......

Here's one that if you read the headline, you'd be inclined to think that a major high rise is coming to N. Broad. It's a little bit of a letdown but it's good news nonetheless.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20...ext_to_Pa__Academy_of_the_Fine_Arts.html

Here's the eyesore, I mean building in question. https://goo.gl/maps/wMrtk

This is really good news actually. I was just a little bummed b/c the headline uses the word "tower". Adding four floors (for a total of 10) isn't my definition of tower but I digress...
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